New (and a bit scary) behavior

[Arzt (David)]

CNC has worked for a couple years before I changed my WiFi router (new model, same maker).

On my next use, I couldn’t connect to the controller. Turning off components, resting and restarting had no effect. Later I checked the controller tab called “Network” and saw the controller thought it was connecting to my “Guest” network (for which it didn’t know the password). Once I entered that, it said it was “Connected” and offered an IP address that’s new to me. But entering that address on the PC (wired to the WiFi) doesn’t restore the WiFi connection to the controller. My first question is how to do that? Google AI says I have to first make a wired connection to the new router. Is that correct?

The scary part happened in the middle of the above steps. I took a thumb drive to the controller, uploaded two files and made a carve from the first. When it finished, the spindle didn’t stop. I couldn’t stop it with the “Stop” button on the controller, nor with the E-stop on the controller. I did stop it with the E-stop button on my control panel. The G-code does have the M5 and M2 statements (so it should have stopped and ended). I turned everything off, rebooted, and confirmed the “M” codes were also on the second file. The same thing recurred (spindle didn’t stop).

I recall approving Firmware upgrade 1.6.4, but not 1.6.6 (now showing on the controller). Are these related problems? Even if we set aside WiFi connections, why would a g-code file (on thumb or otherwise) fail to carry out the instructions as it has done for years?

[OnefinityCNC (Onefinity CNC Official ✅)]

Are you using the Redline Spindle kit or an aftermarket spindle kit?

[Discounttoolbox (ROB MEYERS)]

This is scary behavior, this also happened to me today twice on a program that I have been running for over two years multiple time a day. I am still on 1.6.1 so it is not the update and nothing has changed from when I ran it Friday until this morning. not sure what is happening. Buildbottics with redline vfd and spindle. Also I am hardwired to the network.

[Arzt (David)]

It’s an aftermarket spindle, so Onefinity tech support deferred this question (I asked for that help first). I’m trying to pass the question to the forum, where there may be others with a similar question.

To be candid, I think the fact it’s an aftermarket spindle isn’t relevant…I think it’s an opportunity to discount my question. The spindle and its connections haven’t changed. Firmware changed. Also, the means of getting the .ngc file to the controller changed (but that’s because I suddenly lost WiFi connectivity). I’m still not certain that the cause for both problems isn’t related to the 1.6.6 firmware.

I have made no complaints about tech support, realizing that my choice to use an aftermarket spindle makes the problem mine alone. However, recently I contacted Tech Support to ask about compatibility of a Redline controller. There, the answer was similar because I don’t use a Redline spindle. A little AI time on the computer and a couple e-mails with Redline suggest that the controller could be entirely compatible. That’s a sale that could go forward if only for a bit of analysis by a person trained in automation and the proprietary knowledge of the companies.

Perhaps I posted my question in the wrong space; but I’ll follow your advice on getting it to the user community.

[Ken5]

I think you have 3 issues.

1. The new Wifi router
2. The software update
3. The aftermarket spindle
   Start by trying the older software version
   Eliminate the variable one at a time

[Arzt (David)]

OK, here comes weird:

I went to buy a 25’ ethernet wire (the PC is in a room directly above my basement CNC). During that 2 hour break I left the controller turned on. All other systems (router, modem, PC) unchanged.

Before I left, I had routed the BB Controller to my guest network. It said it connected, but showed an IP address that I hadn’t previously seen. Being computer-illiterate, I simply entered that number on the PC browser and got the umpteenth failure. (I had already entered the IP address of long-standing).

When I got back, the BB Controller was still on. Roll the dice, I said… I directed it back to my “not-guest” WiFi username and password. The Controller showed the old, familiar IP address. I went upstairs to the PC, entered it, and they’re old friends again. No ethernet link, same (new) WiFi router, etc.

Next two questions:

• Will carves continue to end with a rotating bit? (Note to self…assume the gun is loaded).
• What is the science / protocol / guidance on what just happened? Is this something humans can understand, or is the work of solar flares, interference from a nearby telephone or speaker or is it the Norse god, Loki? If I understood this, I’d write it down and refer to it next time!

[Ken5]

I think Einstein referred to it as spooky action from a distance lol

[Ken5]

I used to have a laptop that defaults to my home printer. While at work it would recognize the work printer and print as normal
When I got home if I opened the laptop my home printer would fire up and print the same pages automatically
So yeah

[L.M]

David,

Not in any way to minimize your frustration and I can’t really comment on the spindle shut off issue as I don’t have a BB controller.

Regarding your networking issues I can take a stab at it.

1. Your system automagically connecting to your GUEST network, I have no idea. This isn’t what I’d consider default behavior, but computers do weird things when their environments change.
2. Not being able to connect to your system locally (using the IP Address) when you were connected to GUEST WIFI. This may be expected behavior for the default settings of your router. Many manufacturers configure the routers to not allow traffic from devices on the GUEST network to connect to devices on your ‘regular’ network. In essence, the GUEST network is used to provide internet access only and acts as a barrier to shield your local equipment from folks just stopping by and needing access to the broader world. It’s a good, if basic, security policy.
3. In general IP addresses are assigned either statically or dynamically. It doesn’t sound like your system was configured statically, since you say it showed a different IP address when connected to your GUEST network. Most commonly your devices get assigned their IP addresses on a time limited (lease) basis from the router, using the Dynamic Host Control Protocol (DHCP). In this case your device is assigned a lease from the DHCP ‘pool’. The time limits from one router to the next vary but other than the fact that they do expire, isn’t very important to this discussion. When the lease period expires, your device will query the DHCP server (your router) for a new address. At this point there’s a couple of things that can happen. A) Your device can request the same address and if the DHCP server allows that, it will reassign the requested address; B) The DHCP server may assign the same address it previously assigned; C) The DHCP server may be manually configured to assign a specific address to a specific device based on the devices network card unique identifier (Media Access Control or MAC ‘address’, if you want to take one step deeper into the weeds ) D) The DHCP server may assign a new address out of the pool of addresses. If you setup the same network name (SSID, or Service Set Identifier, yay! alphabet soup, I swear any profession that lasts long enough talks in code), on your new router and the new routers DHCP server uses the same pool of IP addresses (highly likely, particularly if it’s from the same manufacturer) AND your device requested the same IP address with the DHCP server honoring that request, BANG!, your old familiar IP address is back. It’s also possible, that when your device requested a IP address from your new router it just happened to get the same IP address, but I consider that less likely than my previous request/allow scenario.

So, there you go, in ten-thousand words or less, at least a few possibilities for what was going on with the network side of things. The above is by no means an exhaustive list of the possibilities, just some that are probable, particularly on residential/small office home office (SOHO, wooo-hoo snuck another acronym in!!) grade routers that are mostly preconfigured for ease of use right out of the box.

Cheers!

[ahandeman (Troy Johnson)]

For what its worth Guest networks operate differently from regular networks as far as internal network access. are you sure it was YOUR guest network it was detecting?

As far as the spindle goes, Id try running a known good program to see if the problem persists. only way to tell. Just do an air carve

[Arzt (David)]

Thanks for all replies!

I do think an “air carve” is in order. One of the files that failed to turn off the spindle was only 5 minutes long, so it’s ideal.

The “static” and “dynamic” discussion helps. It makes sense that the “guest” network wouldn’t work. The only reason I used it was that my first attempt with the main one wouldn’t even connect (much less fail the IP connection). But I bet that was my “fat-fingering” the password. As for jargon, you’re absolutely right. Someday let’s discuss aldosterone-mediated bicarbonate reabsorption at the distal convoluted tubule.

To further discuss (not rant) about the Onefinity business model: I’ve recently considered 3d printers, where some are proudly “open source” (Prusa) and some firmly “closed” (Bambu). The former require tinkering but can improve with specific additions that the user wants more than the mainstream consumer does (and does so more quickly). The latter is simple to use, but you have to stay completely within the company’s products. I bought with the thought that Onefinity was “open”. It seems to be evolving into a closed “ecosystem”. While I understand the need for consistency within a product line, the benefits of consistency are savings on the number of tech support people and the time spent going down various rabbit holes. If a company really wants to remain “open” then it probably needs to spend money doing so. Buyers from a successful company eventually pay for that, which seems to explain why “closed” company products are so competitively priced.

[TMToronto]

@Arzt

I bought with the thought that Onefinity was “open”.

Can you explain your assumption in more detail, and how Onefinity is not meeting this expectation? Your 3D printer analogy didn’t help my understanding.

[L.M]

I’m very new to 1F products so don’t know if their original premise was to create a platform/system based on open standards and support all the permutations that would entail.

From what I can see 1F have a very fine line to tread.

The PRUSA model does a great job, you can build your own PRUSA style printer from their free 3D models and purchase the other needed hardware from their BOM. Or, you can choose to buy a machine manufactured by PRUSA that’s ready to go out of the box, for a premium. By their own model they keep all the information either under open source licensing or utilize other open source components. It’s an admirable goal and engenders tens of thousands of volunteer hours from passionate professionals and hobbyists continuously improving and expanding the state of the art.

BambuLabs makes brilliantly engineered printers that are rock solid and produce beautiful prints right out of the box, but lean much more heavily toward being vertically integrated and a walled garden/black box. The 3D printing community, which has historically been driven by the open source movement, hasn’t always been receptive to that. There are serious concerns about retaining your intellectual property and control of the hardware. There are also concerns surrounding transparency of what information they collect and what they do with it, and it’s all protected by EULA’s which you contractually agree to simply by turning their machines on. There are few consumer grade printers that provide the same seamless user experience and print quality, but it comes with financial and lack of transparency costs. For what it’s worth I own a Bambu X1-Carbon and a Qidi X-Plus. The Bambu remains on the last upgrade prior to Bambu switching to a “phone-home” licensing scheme and the Qidi is based more on open source hardware, and fortunately hasn’t burned my house down yet… .

From what I’ve seen 1F has created a platform based on industry standards that lets you bring your own router, spindle, controller, etc. So similar to the PRUSA model you can buy something that’s prepackaged, or choose to use at least some major components that you think better suit you. I’m not certain if their original gantry used more “off the shelf” hardware to be built, but just looking at the differences between my Gen 1 Elite and the new Gen 2’s they’re advancing the capability of the machines possibly at the ‘cost’ of using more and more bespoke components (hey anybody else remember when there were only 50 different Lego bricks?) In my opinion, it’s probably not practical for a smaller team to cost efectively be able to actively support all the different configurations that can be applied to the platform, while there should be a expectation that they support their pre-packaged components. Supporting the intersection of 1F provided components and user provided ones makes the situation even more challenging. 1F doesn’t have the advantage where millions of people actively support each other in the way the 3D printing community has. The CNC community is by no means small, but it pales in comparison to the 3D community.

It’s a balancing act that I’m glad I don’t have to manage, especially since the wife doesn’t let me chew gum unless I’m sitting down.

Cheers.

[Arzt (David)]

Certainly. Please understand that nothing that follows should seem angry or emotional. I think well of Onefinity, even when I express these concerns. I want the company to succeed for my own sake, which is why I write all this:

When I bought the Onefinity, there was no Redline (spindle or controller). There was no Masso. Onefinity offered an 80 mm bracket (for a spindle). The company made clear that they didn’t offer a spindle, nor support for one if a user chose to add one. But that offer (an 80 mm bracket) was a silent acknowledgement of the preference for spindles by a meaningful number of users (or that’s how I took it).

The user community had (and has) diverse users, of whom many prefer spindles. We didn’t have expertise in automation, so users emerged with advice on that topic on YouTube. My personal experience included specialized spindle needs (like purge air for brass cutting) that Redline still doesn’t have. Regardless, my reason for CNC use came years before Redline, anyway. This just explains why Redline still isn’t appropriate to my needs.

So about recent observations:

1. Onefinity isn’t perfect (and nobody expects them to be). Some firmware releases haven’t gone according to plan. That’s entirely forgivable, since we’re all in an emerging technology. But it should be a two-way street. When I ran into a problem with WiFi connectivity, the Tech Support answer began by saying that WiFi support was limited. I respect that, since networking isn’t a Onefinity specialty. But that Tech Support answer asked whether I had a Redline spindle and appears to have ended with a comment about “aftermarket” problems. Intended or not, I interpreted the reply as Onefinity’s decision not to further consider a potential role of the firmware in my problem.

2. My latest (scary) experience was a spindle that didn’t stop when told to do so by the Onefinity (BB) controller. The fact that it did stop with my automation-box-mounted E-stop (not Onefinity’s device) suggested (to me) that the Onefinity controller (or the firmware) had a second reason to be considered. Again, Tech Support’s answer was that there was a competitor’s spindle, and that ended interest by Onefinity.

3. A couple weeks earlier, I called Onefinity Sales to ask about buying the Redline Controller. They referred me to Tech Support. Tech said they have no knowledge about whether the Redline Controller works with anything other than Redline VFD and spindle. Their advice was to replace what I have with Redline products. Not only is that a significant cost, but that also takes away some of the benefits my current spindle provides. The user community suggested Redline might know more about the compatibility of their controller. They said that logically the conventions in electronic automation made it likely to be compatible. So I called Redline. They said the “VFD end” of their system is the same as mine (485+ and 485- from a 25-pin port). Next I checked Google AI (!) where there was discussion of digital vs analog signals. That’s something my VFD can overcome if the programming is done correctly. Finally, I called a local automation expert. He said he could figure all this out at just $160 per hour. The cost would be lowest if I assemble the greatest amount of info on the equipment. I reason that Redline would like to sell controllers, even if they can’t sell a spindle. If they have automation experts on their staff, they have everything they need to do what I can buy from a local guy. So the question comes down to the business model and associated costs.

If Onefinity keeps costs competitive by limiting the Tech staff size, credentials and policies, I get it. No ill will on my part. But doing so (by design or default) is what distinguishes an open-source technology from a closed one. It’s not black and white…its a matter of degree, and that appears to have shifted over the last 4 years.