Order of Operations / what went wrong? (masso and tool setter)

Elite Series (Masso & Redline) (Gen 1)
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I have been using the same “Order of Operations” for CNCing since I got my Elite Foreman (Masso / Gen 1) up and running earlier this year. It is based off a Mitchell’s Woodworks video, except I don’t home the machine twice like he recommends and I’ve never had an issue until tonight.

For context, my machine has a Tool Setter and the location and settings came with the machine when I bought it used almost a year ago and things have been spot on so far.

Here is my process for starting a job:

  1. Power on machine, release the E-Stop, home the machine
  2. Fasten down the workpiece
  3. Set X/Y with the touch probe (or without, if I use the center of my workpiece)
  4. Set Z with the touch probe on top of the work surface
  5. Load the file
  6. Hit “Rewind” - “Rewind” - “Cycle Start”

If the Masso doesn’t have the proper bit loaded, it will go to the Tool Setter position and wait for a tool change. Once changed, it measures the tool and then moves back to Work Origin before starting the spindle. If the proper tool is already loaded, it will go to Work Origin (if not already there), start the spindle, and start cutting.

This process has worked for numerous jobs without issue–until tonight.

Tonight, during one of the tool changes on the first job I ran (the job goes from 1/4” → 1/8” → 1/16”), I made a bone-head move and accidentally put a 1/4” EM instead of a 1/8” EM which ruined the piece that was nearly completed. I stopped the job by pressing “Feed Hold” and then “Rewind” a few times until it would respond to “Go to Work Origin”. The wood can be planed/reused for something, so I just grabbed a new blank and started the job over.

Once the new piece was mounted, I Set X and Y from the center of the workpiece just as I did before. I then installed the 1/4” EM, probed Z off of the surface of the workpiece and reloaded the file. Once I hit Rewind - Rewind - Cycle Start, since the Masso had the 1/8” EM loaded and the job called for a 1/4” EM, it went to the Tool Setter and waited for a tool change. Since the 1/4” EM was already in the collet, I hit Cycle Start and it lowered, measuring the 1/4” bit off the tool setter.

All seemed normal up to this point, except instead of running as it should, it cut 1/4-1/2” lower in the workpiece to the point that it was dragging across the work piece at the Safe Z height (which was set to .2”). Though I’m impressed that the 1/4” SPE Tools compression bit didn’t break at 1/2”+ DOC, I don’t know why this happened.

I’ve experienced EMI before, and I don’t believe this was EMI-related. Also, the end mill was tight in the collet so it hadn’t slipped.

To me, it seems like it somehow stored the wrong Z height…but why? Wouldn’t it re-measuring the bit off the tool setter correct for any Z height differences if there were any?

Can someone explain where I went wrong, or how I can avoid situations like this in the future? I don’t plan to ruin pieces often, but for batch work where it’s “rinse and repeat” with multiple bit changes, I could foresee the same order of operations occurring in the future.

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Hi Otis,

The procedure you listed is exactly what I would normally do the only difference is I would (after a mis-step like a wrong tool in the collet) set the Z zero after the m/c measures the tool length. And yes, you would need to press feed hold to do this, then press Program reset. I am usually fanatical about my Work Co-ordinates and found I have been out by -6mm(1.4) a few times.

This may not answer your question as to why, but I got into this habit because of changing from G54 to G55 and G56 as to when to set Z zero.

G54 by default = Home Position(start up), my work co-ordinates usually are either G55, G56, I have a Masso Elite Woodworker.

I don’t know if any of this made sense to you, but always set Z zero with the tool you are going to start with

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I do every tool change with a T#M6 either manually via midi or via gcode. Don’t change the tool without this.

What you did was:

(1) change the tool, (2) set z zero, then (3) M6 via dcode rather than:

(1) M6 midi, (2) change the tool, (3) set z zero. Then run gcode

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Thank you for the suggestions.

So, then, what’s the point of a tool setter if you have to re-probe for Z after every tool change? My belief (and it has worked many times before) has been:

  • You probe for Z with the current tool in the spindle (since the diameter of the tool is irrelevant to the Z height measurement)
  • If the job is using that tool (the tool that is showing on the Masso display as “loaded”), it will start cutting immediately after REWIND - CYCLE START
  • If the job calls for a different tool, it initiates a tool change and then resets the tool height difference relative to the Z you probed initially by measuring off the tool setter

For reference, here is the video I mentioned before where Mitchell’s Woodworks shows an “Order of Operations” for using only a touch probe and for using a touch probe with a tool setter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7auvta0g44&t=713s (As I said, I never understood the need to home the machine twice, but I’ve read in other places suggesting that, too. I’ve tried it with and without homing it twice and it’s worked without doing it, so I stopped. Does anyone know if this is required or not?)

Looking back to yesterday’s issues, I realize I should have just initiated a tool change via the MDI first, then probed—but the tool length is irrelevant with a tool setter as the tool lengths are set to “0” in the Masso since it measures the tools each time. Or at least that is how I thought it worked.

Like most things, I’m probably overthinking this…but as someone in IT who has spent many hours determining root cause of issues, I do like to understand the “why” when things go wrong.

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I believed the Masso initiated the tool change automagically since it knew the tool being called for in the g-code wasn’t the tool it had loaded, hence it moving to the tool change location and then re-checking the length on the Tool Setter.

The scenario I’m describing is this:

  • I have a 1/8” EM in the machine and the Masso shows Tool # 7 “1/8 DC EM” on the display
  • I load a file that calls for a 1/4” EM (tool #3)
  • As soon as I do REWIND - CYCLE START, it goes to the tool change location (above the Tool Setter) and waits until I make the change (showing “Press Cycle Start once the tool is changed” on the screen)
  • Once I make the change and press CYCLE START, it measures the tool length, shows the new tool on the screen (Tool # 3 “1/4 DC EM”), goes to my Work Origin, and starts the spindle

I’ve done this dozens of times and this scenario was no different…

As I wrote above, lesson learned—I’ll be sure to change the end mill before I do anything else (like probing, etc.). But this should have worked as it has dozens of times before.

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It’s hard to do a root cause analysis from a single instance, though you wrote an excellent step by step recount of what happened.

This may be a process issue, which I think folks are trying to figure out from your detailed explanation or simply a ‘sometimes computers do weird things’ or in the lingo of my world, intermittent issues suck.

If you want to try and see if this is a workflow issue, I’d suggest forcing the problem using the same steps you mentioned above and see if you have the same behavior. You can probably do this just fine by removing the material once you’ve set your Z height and allowing the machine to air cut, since, if I’m understanding correctly the bit dove into the work piece but not the waste board.

If you repeat the same steps prior to the failure while air cutting a couple of times and have the same behavior then it’s a process issue and maybe some of the suggestions mentioned will help you refine your workflow so that this issue can’t happen again.

On the other hand if you can’t get the behavior to repeat, then it’s most likely a intermittent problem, and there’s not much you can do other than curse at the techno gremlins that invade our shops from time to time.

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I measured the depth of last night’s failure, and it was off by exactly 1/4” which seems very “not random” (versus it being the differences in how deep the bits were mounted in the collet).

I will need to look at a few other Masso settings to confirm that everything is set as it should be, but all of the tools in the Masso are set to “Auto Tool Zero”, meaning it should measure them each time. (I never changed the settings from when I purchased it 11 months ago.)

With the goal of “never letting a failure go to waste”, I did go down a rabbit hole on Masso’s website (https://docs.masso.com.au/) to learn all about machine homing with a Tool Setter, tool offsets, and “Auto Tool Zero”. I am 100% guilty of “learning by YouTube” hence not learning it properly from Masso…but there is a lot of great information there.

With my newfound knowledge, I now will always initiate a tool change with the MDI every time I make a change that isn’t done via the gcode during a job. This practice will include not changing the end mill while the machine is off, as the Masso will remember the last tool loaded when it starts which it will think is still loaded, which could be problematic.

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this is probably not helpful but i know that tool setters and z zeros are not the same thing. tool setters measure stick out but if the z zero is wrong the disaster is pending. Also, I always after homing and tool setter function press “go to work origin”. I have had a few disasters because I did not do that first. I have no had one since. I mill Aluminum every day, so I have to be careful at all times. It is not as forgiving as wood is.

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If I’ve made the mistake of installing the wrong bit I do a dummy change to a different bit with a T#M6. I let it zero on the tool setter. Then I do another T#M6 with the proper bit.

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I’m having similar 1/4 inch z drop problems, with a much more simplified process. I’ve been running jobs where I’m not using a tool setter (though I have also had the same problem as described with the tool setter, but so much earlier in my Masso/1F journey that I assumed user error). Between repeat jobs, randomly, the Z is about a quarter inch lower than it has been set, even though it was correct for the first run. No tool change at all, just load new wood, cycle and start. I’ve now begun checking (which is a waste of time, but not wood!). It especially happens if the emergency stop has been activated, or if it wigs out and has to be turned off and back on again (then home startup routine again). X and Y are seemingly never misremembered, both with and without cycling the power, but always with a rehome. It has occasionally forgotten Z after an overnight with it being powered off since it was new, but I no longer trust it to be right. Yesterday, Z was 1 mm too high ( I found out later), ran the project, and it stopped at the final point of the cut with no error codes, bit still spinning away, and the Masso link app on my computer registering the file having run 2 percent only. I’m going to perform 2 changes (so not going to know which fixes it if either do) at once later today. 1: Change out my dust hose for a 4” one to remove potential static EM issues. 2: New USB dongle (there is play in the original one).

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I know that this is probably odd but i never have shut down my machine. Unless something catastrophic happened. It is always on in the garage.

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Interesting. I always switch off. But I always leave my personal computer on. Probably because the masso boots quickly and my PC doesn’t.

Cons:

  • I wonder what the idle power consumption is?
  • Fire risk
  • Surge risk

Pros:

  • Is better to leave on when the workshop that might go cold overnight, keep components warm?
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