Speed setting for 5.4 degree ball nose bit

I was wondering what others are using for a speed with this bit (Amana 46282)? I’m using a 1/4" end mill to rough the shape and then this bit at 40 in/min to do the finish passes. I have stock to leave with the end mill set to .020". I was thinking of trying a cheaper Chinese bit and ramping up the speed until I went too fast but thought I would ask.

I would like to cut down the time needed for the last operation. If I set the spacing between passes at .008" it’s taking over 15 hours. I was thinking I would try 80 in/min and see if that is too fast.

I haven’t used that exact bit, but you should be able to go a lot faster than 40ipm on your finishing pass. I run similar bits at 24k rpm, 7-8% stepover, and 120-150 ipm (a bit slower with denser materials) for 3D carves.

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@Dr-Al I also run bits like that at up to 120 ipm with a cut depth of 2mm and a small step over. I run plunge speed at about 1/2 of feed speed and that seems to be working well for me. Am quite certain that you can run the tool faster than that but since I use a maker maid spindle /makita knockoff I do not push the router too hard, bits are cheaper than routers.

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I used the settings from Amana’s website for the bit as a starting point. I could even add a tool path wit an 1/8" endmill so the final pass has even less material to remove. I’ll try the next project as 120 ipm and reduce the distance between each pass to .006" and see how that works out. Thanks.

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Usual preface, I’m with PreciseBits so while I try to only post general information take everything I say with the understanding that I have a bias.

So I’ll try to answer the RPM question first. The short version is that it depends on how deep you are plunging the bit. The reason for this is there’s a limit to surface speed based on tool geometry, diameter, and material. In the worst case if we use the 18KRPM listed on their feeds and speeds at the 1/4" is 1178 SFM. So let’s say that we only plunge 0.50" deep. That makes the diameter at the top of the tool 0.157". For the same 1178 SFM that works out to 28,662 RPM.

RPM aside you can feed MUCH faster than anything listed here. What all feeds and speeds are trying to get to is chipload. A simple version of chipload is the width of the chip being cut per flute per rotation. So as a quick example if we want to take a very conservative 0.002" chipload with a 4 flute cutter at 18KRPM we would need to cut 144IPM (chipload * flutes * RPM). However, when cutting less than a 50% stepover you run into chip thinning were you are cutting less than the expected chipload. So using the typically recommended 8% stepover for 3d finishing we would need to cut 265IPM to actually cut the 0.002" chip.

The above being said. I have no idea why the recommended chipload on their sheet is listed as 0.0005" - 0.00065" for wood and 0.00037"-0.00045" for plastic. This isn’t enough to prevent rubbing in most woods or melting in plastics. Almost seems like someone added one too many 0s.

Hope that’s useful. Let me know if there’s something I can help with.

Thanks John. I’m not sure who decided the chipload. I was trying to start at the low end and work up so the speed was (I think) too slow and not enough of a chip load for the bit. In reality the bit rarely cuts more than 1/16" deep.

I get free stuff from Amazon. I just got a Chinese copy of this bit with the ceramic coating to try. So if I push it too hard and break it I’m not really out anything. I think I might try to push it to around 160 ipm with a chip load of .004" to .006" and see what happens. They are 3 flute bits.

No problem.

At 1/16" it’s ~0.0739" (I haven’t been doing the calc to compensate for the ball radius). That works out to to over 41KRPM at 800 SFM. So you can probably go max RPM without much issue.

Free stuff is nice but keep in mind that you are not dealing with the same tool. Geometry changes like flute rake, helix, edge radius, and relief will change the minimum chipload and surface speed. Things like the carbide grade will also effect the edge radius, wear method, rigidity, and tool strength. The coating depends on the type (there are LOTS of ceramic coatings) if it looks similar it’s probably nACo. How that will perform depends on the thickness and process quality. In most cases a cheaper version will actually make it require more chipload for a minimum as the functional edge will be more “blunt”.

Keep in mind with the chipload calculation that you still need to account for chip thinning. You can find calculators online for it but I’ll give a few common stepover percent ratios.

    10% is 1.67x

    8% is 1.84x

    6% is 2.1x

So if you want to hit your chipload and going 8%… Chipload * flutes * RPM * 1.84.

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I may have been unlucky with the routers I burned up, spent several months going after optimum chip loading & wound up getting two failed routers is fairly short order.
Have bought many milling bits over time, and have never noticed any real difference between brand A and brand B, and certainly have never found bits with coatings to last longer, run cooler or cut faster. I think we are being sold a bill of goods when we are told that a bit with a name works better than a 1/4" 2 flute upcut with no name.
If you have a spindle with some real power by all means work towards optimum chip load, otherwise take it easy on your router spindle.

I’m running a 3hp spindle so power isn’t a problem. With this bit power shouldn’t be a problem for even a Makita router (since it’s such a small bit). The main difference I have seen between top dollar and budget brand bits after years of woodworking is the cheaper bits dull quicker. Most people aren’t willing to toss a bit when it starts getting dull.

The blue Spectra coating that Amana uses will slowly wear off. The cutting edge of the bit will start turning silver and then it’ll dull over time. I’m not selling stuff so I really don’t care too much about time or even the cost of bits. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to speed things up.

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There’s not enough info here for me to say definitively why. However, part of this may come from how little actual power is available from a router. Let’s use the Makita RT0701C as an example. It is listed as having “Maximum Horsepower of 1.25” (745.7 watts). However, this is typically measured as a peak draw for a very short amount of time. If we look at the actual input specs it’s 6.5 AMPS at we will assume 120V. That works out to 780w. However this is a brushed universal motor so let’s be forgiving and after all the losses we might have 60% of that left (~470w) to actually use at varying torque and RPM. If we take this with say 1/4" “generic” geometry tooling and try for an “optimal” cutting depth and chipload you could exceed this causing premature failure.

Don’t know what you were using or in what materials but I’ll try to give some insight on this. For the purpose of this I’m only going to touch on 3 things here and only the bare basics. Minimum chipload, cut quality, and tool wear.

Minimum chipload:

    What I mean by minimum chipload is the least material were we can actually get the material to "cut" and not either grind or rub it out of the way. This is first determined by what is called the edge radius which is the leading edge of the flute. This is the first part of a minimum chipload as you can't cut a chip in any material thinner than the edge radius of the tool as you can't get "under" the material.

    How small the edge radius is depends on the flute rake (angle of attack), grinding wheels used, carbide grade, and flute relief (material removes to keep the back of the flute from rubbing during the cut). So to make this more English understandable, we can’t grind the edge of the flute smaller than the grade of the carbide will support. Nor can we grind into that carbide finer features than the grinding wheel used. How those grinding wheels themselves are shaped to grind the carbide will also effect it and how many tools you can make before the wheels need to be reground or replaced. There are other things here too but this is already getting long winded.

    The edge radius and the material properties will then determine the minimum chipload to actually “cut” a chip. The “softer” and more “flexible” the material the larger the chipload needed for the chip to support itself and cut. Additionally, the larger the edge and the lower the rake of the flute the larger the chip will need to be.

Cut quality

    From a tool geometry perspective this will vary by many things but I'll go over a few common ones like the rake (angle of attack), helix (flute twist), flute relief (room made for the flute movement in cut), tool deflection (based on core remaining, flute volume, and carbide grade.).

    A simple way of thinking of rake is how aggressive the cutting flute is. It comes at the cost of the strength of the flute. This will also along with the relief and edge radius effect the amount of force generated by the cut and therefore how much force the machine, tool, and material experience.

    Helix is the twist rate of the flute. It’s effect on cut quality depends on the material, direction of the helix (up-cut, down-cut), and the relative strength of the CNC in Z vs X/Y. The tighter the helix the more shearing force and the more the force direction changes to the Z. The shearing force is almost always a good thing but the force direction can greatly change how a cut comes out. Too much for the material and you will start to tear-out, if the CNC is weaker in the Z than the X/Y then you may exceed the forces that the Z can resist without cutting errors.

    The deflection is effected by the amount of material left in the tool (core), flute volume due to core and if you have enough room for the cut chips until evacuation, and the grade of the carbide as you pickup and lose features based on the cobalt percentages, carbide types and amounts, consistency and distribution of the powders before sintering, and the other added materials. Basically you have a base tool rigidity that is based on the carbide grade and then geometry effects that reduce it.

    All of these will effect the cut quality in different ways and where the best quality and/or optimal cut is.

Tool wear

    The carbide grade will effect this in a number of ways. First there's the hardness of the carbide that will effect the abrasion resistance to wear you will typically see this as a Rockwell A. Then there is the for lack of a better way to say it impact resistance. This is often not given but some manufacturers will list the facture toughness which is a decent analog. Then there's the carbide's ability to resist force before snapping usually listed as transverse rupture strength. This gives us a base to work with that the geometry then effects. As an example, if you have a very fine edge with a high rake that tool will loose it's edge faster. But some or all of that can be compensated for by picking a carbide grade with a higher hardness and impact or TRS depending on the tool application.

    To give you a rough idea here’s the listed specs of a number of sub-micro grain carbides that are in the K20 ISO spec:

    Chinese YG7
    T.R.S= 1.9GPa HRA=90

    Kennametal KFS06
    T.R.S.=3.44GPa HRA=93.3

    Ryotec (Mitsubishi) TF15
    T.R.S.=4.0GPa HRA=91.0

    These are clearly not the same and they will have a real effect on tool life. But how will depend on what they are used on and how they are used both from a tool geometry and chipload/surface speed standpoint.

All of the above being said it’s possible to have very different tool geometries and carbide grades and not make use of the differences thus leading to similar outcomes. As an example in deflection or power limited applications it’s harder to make use of even 1/4" tooling. You can’t really take deep passes and efficient chiploads leading to a lot of things averaging out if you try. However, if you change your pass depths and potentially stepover to reduce the forces you can still make use of the better chiploads which will result in better quality cuts and longer tool life. On the other end if you aren’t even getting to the minimums you will still remove material but you are basically using the end-mill as sand paper. You will never get good tool life that way nor be able to take advantage of any of the features of the geometry or carbide a tool might have. To be clear I’m not accusing you of this. I don’t have enough information to even have an idea if it would be true in your experience.

In this thread where we are dealing with features that effect the minimums. Losing some rake or increasing the edge radius here is much more critical as it effects the base chipload needed to make a cut that is multiplied by the chip thinning. So a cheap version of a tool might mean 50+ IPM difference between actually cutting or grinding.

This depends on the coating, the base carbide, and the wear method. I’ll give an example. Let’s say that we have a tool made for cutting domestic hardwoods and it has all the best possible features needed for this and is made out of a very good high hardness carbide. In most cases in that material we are not going to see any great increase in tool life for most coatings. This is due to the fact that we are both increasing the edge radius by coating the tool (you coat ALL of the tool), and that the wearing method is going to be more impact based than abrasive wear. So basically in that application we made the tool very slightly dull for no trade off. If instead we were cutting an exotic hardwood like say rosewood or ebony where the tree integrates silica into the wood, we would pickup more tool life as we are now in an abrasive material. This assumes though that we have a coating that is harder than the carbide, flexible enough to stay bound to the tool in the application, and can withstand the heat load. A lot of coatings do not have all those features. Some of them are specifically for metal where they rely on the heat generation to form an oxide that protects the tool. Some are so brittle that they can’t be used in applications where the impacts or flex in the carbide is enough to crack or otherwise compromise the coating. Some are also so temperature sensitive that they basically evaporate from the edge in some applications.

To be clear I’m not attacking your post. I actually understand where you are coming from. But there are actual differences for application specific tooling and premium tooling. Is it a match for your work, process, machine, material, and budget? I have no idea as I don’t know any of that in relation to you. But I hope the above will maybe help some to understand it better.

If it’s same controller I have you can set it to 300 iom and it’ll only run a speed the controller and steppers can handle due to what I call brake acceleration deceleration set by the manufacturer or 1f so it has time to move and follow the detail of the model being used yes it’s very slow and there’s no way I know to get around it other than buy a more industrial type machine but the good thing if it is it’ll keep you from breaking a bit. But sometimes not here’s an example if the model has detail and it’s moving at the speed it can to make the stepper’s move and then you come to an area that has no detail it will ramp up to set speed and possibly break your bit or dull it really fast :joy: good luck hobby machines just that and I asked the 1f about a tolerance issue of circles and squares being .050 out of round and square and wanted to know how to fix it and they said to me via email it’s adequate for a hobby machines and wouldn’t offer any info to fix it sad but true I thought these machines were more accurate than .050 I can hold closer tolerances with my skill saw :joy:


These take me 11hrs to carve the size is 5x7 inches roughly x y 3 bits used and rest machining and it’s the fastest the woodworker can run to complete them and less I reduce step over and except less quality in final product uhg

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The industrial machine part is easy. My neighbor has a 5x10 FlexiCam CNC router that I can use anytime I want. 15hp spindle and 20hp vac makes for fast cutting. I like my 1F for precision work. But I get spoiled using a machine that can hog out wood in a minute with bits bigger than your fist.

I didn’t spend much time trying to match the two pieces of wood but this is the kind of stuff I’ve been doing lately.

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@TDA You obviously are further into bit geometry than I, I am relying on 50 years of experience and fly by the seat of my pants much of the time.
While I was doing some research on bit coatings came across a paper examining coatings, to paraphrase the summary they determined that coatings vary both in composition and methods of deposition, but the major take away was that they could find little advantage in coatings except when milling tungsten. I thank you for putting in the work to educate the forum and indeed I learned from your comments.

I haven’t read anything on coatings, like Amana’s Spektra, and woodworking. But I have seen a number of changes as of late. One of the free things I got from Amazon was some cut off wheels for my 4 1/2" grinder. They are metal with a diamond manganese coating on them. I never would have bought one to try as the name brand ones I’ve seen cost over $20 each. These are under $4 each on Amazon. The other day I got to try one on some sheet metal and it was amazing. I easily would have used at least 3 of the abrasive wheels to do the same work. The metal one didn’t wear down and still is working just as good as when I started the project.

So I try to keep an open mind. I’ve also been around for a very long time. I’ve spent decades cutting wood and aluminum. When dry cut saws that could cut steel (at a very slow RPM) with carbide teeth started showing up it shocked me. I had seen what happens to a carbide cutting blade when someone tried to cut steel on our aluminum saw. Even that tech has improved as you can buy inexpensive cold cut saws that spin at a much higher RPM and last.

What a lot of people don’t understand is that carbide was not sharper than high speed steel. But it handles heat better and the two main issues with cutting wood are heat and wear. Some wood, like ipe, have an extremely high silica content. HHS can only last so long. These newer coatings help deal with both heat and wear. I can’t say it’s worth it, I just don’t cut enough to know now. But the coatings can also help when you get feed or speed feeds wrong. Moving too slowly is often bad for a cutting bit in wood. That’s also a thing a lot of people new to CNC woodworking don’t understand.

I currently have a mixture of bits with different coatings and plenty without. I suspect that we’ll see more and more coatings, just like we now see different types of carbides used. I’m guessing that coatings will be the future for all cutting tools.

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