A new 1F owner awaiting delivery of an Elite Foreman but not new to CNC. There are number of posts using shop vacs, parallel central vacuum units, but nothing I have seen on regenerative blowers. A 10+ HP regenerative blower is what I would expect to find driving hold down on a large production table but a Foreman is not tiny. Anyone have experience using a home shop grade 2 stage regenerative blower for vacuum source? ie: Atlantic Blower 402/1 3HP 113cfm, 110 in/h20 and only 69db (quieter is more better). I would expect a unit like this to run for a decade with minimal maintenance and substantially quieter than even a shop vac. With some shopping, a new unit with the pieces comes in about what some vendors are selling parallel central vacuum units for but it is about half the CFM, 7x the life and same dead head vac pressure. My thought is a reasonable plenum design and MDF with sealed edges gets me a home shop version of typical commercial hold down. Any experiences with ~110CFM single zone under a 48"x48" machine?
I’m going to go with 4 zones and I will be using the QCW with a vacuum hold down sealed plenum. The red is gasketing material. The yellow is the drilling pattern into the basic wasteboard (attach from above since we have accuracy). I’m going to use 2" schedule 40 pipe and fittings and vacuum gauges.
The standard sized wasteboards will have additional holes to attach the vacuum plenum (yellow areas) and there will be holes for the vacuum pipe and an area to do vertical milling on parts.
The plumbing uses 45 elbows where possible and are not glued to the wasteboards
And here is the plumbing by itself
These are sketchup models that I made and I will provide users with them on request.
I bit the bullet and have the regenerative blower (AB-402/1) sitting in the shop awaiting a router table to suck from. I had drawn up a similar idea for the plenum in Solidworks, My thought right now is a single zone but may have to go to multiple… The fun part of owning CNC equipment and being modular, if it doesn’t work,. change it,. You are out a sheet of MDF, not much time and a couple of PVC fittings. I am getting the rated 130CFM and 112inches of water at dead head from the blower . We shall see if it is enough. I hope so because with the muffler and silencer the blower is QUIET. My table saw makes a lot more noise. The vacuum hold down will not be a permanent fixture for me but one of a couple of designs that can slide into place depending on what I want to do that week. I never wanted to make chess pieces until I saw them on being cut on a 4th axis in this forum. WAY COOL! We shall see. Other prosumer grade table vendors are using very similar hold down designs with regen blowers instead of ganged central vacs. What are you using for the vacuum source?
I haven’t decided yet on a vacuum source.
What kind of dollars are you talking about for the AB-402/1
Atlantic Blowers Two Stage Regenerative Blower
1.5 inch 113 CFM 1 Phase AB-402/1 × 1 $1,652.15
Silencer 1.5" × 1 $259.47
Relief Valve 1.5" × 1 $226.23
Vacuum Filter Element 1.5" × 1 $43.40
Vacuum Filter Canister 1.5" × 1 $222.54
Subtotal $2,403.79
Shipping $0.00
The MFG direct rep wanted $3500. Above is the distribution price I paid from Industrial Fans Direct. It was drop shipped from AB in TX anyway. Mag starter sourced from AMZ. AB starter is a WEG 3 phase 5hp mag they use single phase 240 for $150. $36 bought me a 240 3HP starter. The silencer is an added luxury, it comes with a muffler and is plenty quiet as shipped. I went overboard. Same with the filter canister. There are 20 ways to do the same thing for way less. The relief valve is required but if you have even a mini-lathe and a welder it can be built for about $35. I also bought some galvanized 1.5in fittings and pipes at the depot for $40. PVC is used before the filter canister toward the table.
Maintenance is to change the 2 shaft bearings every 5000 run hours. Draws 10amps 240vac with the relief valve set. I would have gone bigger but cannot get 3 phase anything to my shop and do not have enough 240vac to handle a phase converter. This is as big as I could find 2 stage and still run single phase.
I expect it will be auctioned in running condition 30 years from now after my funeral.
Give me a couple of weeks, assuming 1F ships in the 9 week window, and I will let you know how (and if) it works. I have 2 weeks left. Might be worth a video. If it fails horribly I have new extractor for my welding table.
I have been using a really simple system that I saw on a video from Mountain Makers. It is a spoilboard with a grid cut into it with the MatchFit profile and has a couple of ports that I connect my Fein Turbo2 (has a cooling fan and a vacuum fan). This in combination with a 3/8x1/4 profile Grid Gasket makes a vacuum hold down super flexible and easy to use.
Here is a photo of the spoilboard: You can see the vacuum port in the middle. I already had the vacuum so it cost me about $90 for 100ft of the grid gasket material and a new piece of MDF. The vacuum pressure is really impressive and I am unable to move the pieces without a tool to lift and break suction. My vacuum is controlled with an IoT switch and I can map that to pin 15 or manually turn on/off.
I am working on a second version of the spoil board with 2 zones for the vacuum where I was planning to just move the hose from one to the next, but I might do a PVC setup similar to above with one valve to switch between the two.
I have a Fein Turbo 1 that works with a cyclone for dust collection.I also have a 1 hp dust collector (4" hose) that might work.
I bought the Fein because it is relatively quiet - but I wasn’t sure that small parts made out of prefin plywood would hold. Prefin in pretty smooth and may require some material such as All Star Tile Gasket to increase friction and pull.
Time will tell.
Makermatt, you have improved my expectations as the flow specs and vacuum for the regen blower are similar to the Fein Turbo you are using. The MatchFit idea is taking me down a whole new road. I have seen the system before while surfing but have not used it. It is a GREAT idea! The feedback on the actual vacuum hold down you are getting with that grid is also really helpful.
If all works in MDF my second step was going to be playing with a routed PVC plenum and the MatchFit idea …dovetails, with PVC as a material. Routing it successfully will be the challenge I think. 3/4" PVC sheets here are the same cost as laminated 3/4 MDF sheets. A challenge for a different day.
Happy to send you the Fusion360 file for the spoilboard. It took me a little while to figure out how to get everything to fit and compatible with the QCW frame.
If you go with the Fein then you might consider 1.5" PVC pipe and fittings.
14 – 1.5" schedule 40 slip on 45 degree elbows - Eastman 48466
9 - 1.5" schedule 40 slip on 90 degree elbows - Eastman 48460
4 - 1.5" schedule 40 slip on Tees - Eastman 48451
4 – 1.5" schedule 40 slip ball valve - Eastman 20119
20 - feet schedule 40 straight pipe to fit - may be in 5 foot lengths (for easier shippping)
Also - make sure your connections are really well glued. Cycling full vacuum - no vacuum is hard on the glue joints.
Also do not starve the Fein vacuum with no air flow otherwise risk burning it out. The Fein comes with a twist valve on the hose connector - or provide a bleeder valve and use Vacuum gauges to watch vacuum values. We are about 1400 feet above sea level so we can’t get the hold down as you can at sea level. I’m just glad I’m not in the mile high city.
Agree with everything you had to say especially about the airsupply to the Fein. I have it in a cabinet and had to add a few holes so it could suck in cool fresh air and blow out the hot air.
I had no idea that elevation would affect it that much.
I would really appreciate the F360 file. I was puttering with how to do the paths in VCARVE, likely using the Keyhole gadget. The headache is setting in. You know it is when you start considering just writing the g-code by hand. I switched from F360 to Solidworks for modeling/CAD when they offered a full featured hobbyist license for $48 a year. The CAM module is not part of the Solidworks license, but DXF export is. With that said it has only been a couple of months and I can still work my way around F360. Thx!
Thanks both for the comments on the Fein cooling. I have a Karcher vac I that use in the garage similar in spec to the Fein Turbo 2 and elected to not use it for this for worry of burning it out. Hence regen blower. I was starting to question the decision early in this thread but your comments on cooling settled my stomach.
Go on to my website and send me an email. I write cabinet making software called CabMaker32 and CutMaster (panel optimization and dxf output)
can you share the files?
Sorry for the delay, here is the F360 file. This is a slightly updated version since I am incorporating the RapidChange ATC on the left side along with a fence/rail that will be built at the same X location. You can omit that and move the pockets and extend the troughs if you want. I have not updated the machine/CAM functions yet with this new design.
spoil board v8.f3z.zip (25.8 MB)
Curious how the Rapid Change ATC is working for you?
Pat
I am just in the process of getting it working now that my spindle is setup and functioning properly. I have done a single tool change using a macro and am hoping to get the rest of the code integrated this evening for the program-start and tool-change code blocks on the settings page. After that it will be tying into the 25 pin connector to use Load1 to open/close the dust cover using an M7/M9 command.
But for the money, it is all that fits my hobby budget and I look at the collet nuts as somewhat expendable/replaceable which is the only real wear that I see occuring over time. So for less than $500 I can have 6 tools used and not have to do manual tool changes or separate files like I am right now for each operation.
I’ve done some more research and I think I will try 1.5" pipe. It is much cleaner. I will try the Fein and purchase a second Fein vacuum if needed.
Now that I have the RC-ATC working it is changing how I approach work where I can think about the right bit for what I want to do rather than how can I get one bit to do it all.