I’m about to order a cnc and have never used one before. I’ve spent quite a bit of time in the forums to help aid in my decision for which to buy. I think I want to go with the Pro Foreman, but may still go up to the Elite.
My main question is whether or not to go with a spindle over the makita trim router. I think the Pro with the trim router will allow me to complete most everything I want to do, however I am concerned that it won’t allow me to flatten large slabs. I’ve read about the routers overheating. I understand spindles are better in just about every way other than price.
Is my best bet to balance price and performance to go with the Pro and a good spindle? Is there a difference in capability for flattening large slabs between the Pro and the Elite?
You could flatten a large slab with a router, if you do it a little bit at a time. You’ll do a shallower cut/more passes and use a much narrower bit. So expect it to take a lot more time. And ya, eventually you may be replacing the router. If you are doing this to make money, invest in the spindle. That’s my take on it.
I’ve owned an original X-35 Jouneyman and an Elite Foreman, and I can say they would both handle slab flattening equally. Both the X-35/pro or the Elite are capable as a frame goes, and yes both are essentially equal in power and speed for slab flattening or any other machining for that matter. I started with a Makita 3+ years ago, still have it, but retired it after 6 months on the Onefinity for an 80mm spindle as soon as it was available. I keep the Makita as a hand held trim router and it does a fine job as that. I feel that Makita or their suppliers went cheap some time back with worse bearings and brushes, so I think you’d have to rely on luck for any useful time with using it as a milling motor, as it isn’t one.
It seems also that for larger slab flattening, both the Pro and Elite are plenty capable. It is more dependent on the router vs spindle and spindle is going to be the better option.
You can still get the 80mm Z mechanism and get a 65mm shim. I just replaced my Makita with the Open Build ER11 router. It has been a positive replacement as I am not ready for the spindle just yet. I had used my Makita to flatten a slab before but you have to go fairly shallow.
I upgraded to a spindle last year after using a makita for ~1 1/2 years on woodworker (32”x32”). On the makita I only used a 1” flattening bit on the waste board and only at skim depth. Monitored bit and makita temp with an IR thermometer…it was always on the edge of too hot. For slab flattening, I used 1/4” upcut with no issues. It takes a little bit longer, but not much since I could run at significantly higher feed rates than the 1” bit.
With a spindle, no issues with 1” or any other bit. I can set feeds n speeds, depth, and stepover optimized for the bit. On the makita, speed is really in a small range ones that work for the makita and everything else gets driven by that 3-4 1/2 dial setting.
I generally use the 1F instead of planner. Planner gets used when I am doing lots of long boards. otherwise it’s so easy to do with 1F that it’s not worth setting up the planner. More important for my workflow (and temperament) I can halfa$$ glue ups on wide panels and clean on 1F without worry about 13” planer width limit or need to be careful on aligning boards for glue up.
Add that with 80mm spindle I can use all my 1/2” bits that I use on the router table. I wish I upgraded sooner.
Adding a spindle isn’t a huge expense. It doesn’t even need to be too complicated. You can manually control the speed and when it turns on and off vs having the controller do it. The advantages are, of course, more power and the ability to use bits that wouldn’t fit into the Makita.
If slab flattening is something you are thinking you will do then I wouldn’t even think twice. Get the 2.2kw 80mm spindle. I use a CMT surfacing bit that has replaceable inserts and costs less than $100. I think it’s 2 3/8" diameter. I have taken off close to an 1/8" per pass with mine. The time savings alone make it worth it.
As for the Elite. I haven’t felt the need. Personally I like having the gaming pad to control the movement of the 1F. Often I will surface wood manually because it’s quicker. Often I find that I need to do a second pass and by doing it manually I can control the depth without creating new gcode with an updated depth. I don’t need to worry about zeroing.
For me the Elite doesn’t offer enough advantages to justify the upgrade cost. I got my 1F long before the Elite came out. If I was buying now, I’m not sure I would spend the money. Yes, it’s much cheaper to do it now then upgrade later but you have to ask yourself “what advantages does it offer me”.
Some people just want the most expensive so they don’t think twice. Others will actually benefit. I find a lot of people here just don’t understand stall homing and will bash it. Personally it works just fine for me. If I start having issues it’s because I need to do the routine maintenance the the rails (which you still need to do to the Elite machines). It’s simpler. No extra wires or switches to break.
Steppers with encoders are nice but it’s a hybrid design. They don’t send data back to the controller to let you know what’s happening. More advanced tooling uses that data to adjust things like speed to eliminate losing steps.
Being able to speed up the 1F in the middle of a cut would be nice. But as you get ‘seat time’ you learn what speeds to go at and you adjust the settings for the bit for when you pick that bit for the next project. If you have money to burn or think you are going to do this as a business then spend away. If it’s just a hobby for fun then most likely you’ll be just as happy with the non Elite.
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Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
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Hey Michael,
Many people in this forum show that using a hand trim router in a CNC is possible but it depends on how much load you intend to put on it. If you only make name signs on birthdays, thanksgiving and christmas and have plenty of time, and are ready to always stand besides the machine with the finger on the pause/stop icon on the screen, it may possible to be satisfied with it. I don’t think that someone who really used a spindle once will ever go back. The difference is not only the higher power, less noise, and better efficiency, but first of all that the hand trim router has only one speed where it delivers its nominal torque/speed ratio and that it is slowed down by a too high mechanical load – it gets hotter the slower it runs and can malfunction then and even burn if slowed down too much. This cannot happen with a spindle/VFD because a VFD not only prevents that the spindle is slowed down by the mechanical load, but the VFD will always stop the spindle (and if correctly wired, the g-code program) if the spindle’s current draw exceeds a operator-set limit.
Usually when milling wood you have to avoid heat, which is done by high speed, but with a hand trim router, which is a so-called universal motor, you have either speed OR torque, but not both at the same time. See router vs. spindle motor comparison. Also you loose your Makita warranty as soon as you mount the Makita hand trim router into a CNC machine (Makita support stated). A spindle, which is a asynchronous induction motor, delivers its nominal torque over a wide speed range to choose from, often 6000 – 24000 rpm. A spindle is an induction motor, such motors are the workhorses in the industry. They have no carbon brush commutators because they have no rotor coils, but you forcibly need a VFD to run them because they run only on three-phase electricity and their speed is controlled by the variable frequency of this three-phase current (usually 100–400 Hz for 6000–24000 rpm, 600 Hz on professional VFDs for 36000 rpm on spindles like this one).
The Onefinity machine’s chassis (rails, chrome-plated hardened steel hollow shafts, linear bearings, ball screws, extruded aluminium machine feet) are identical on PRO and Elite Series. The PRO now has the 30 mm drag chains from the Elite too. The Elite Series have the Masso G3 Touch Controller and different, but in terms of power equivalent stepper motors, but both series use stepper motors (and no servos). The PRO Series have the Onefinity Controller which is a software and hardware fork of the Buildbotics CNC controller.
Thanks everyone for the advice, as well links to information. Definitely going with a spindle and looks like the Pro and the Elite both have their own benefits.