HuanYang 2.2KW spindle nut (ER20A)

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Derek, we had this in this thread already. The manual and the nameplate both state 20 A @ 110 V 3-phase output current.

Over and out.

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

@WaywardWoodworker

@Aiph5u

it is crystal clear what the manual and the nameplate of this VFD say: 20 A @ 110 ±20% V 3-phase electrical output capacity. When you are an electrician, and you have a clear statement of the VFD manufacturer which gives you the specification of the output rating (and we have this here),

What is the nameplate input rating? In the absence of specific manufacturer instructions (or engineered plan) that is all that matters to an electrician.

PS: The other day you said:

@WaywardWoodworker

The nameplate rating of the VFD would only be used if the manual does not contain specific information

Here both say the same, manual and VFD.

If you want to say, if the input rating is missing, you can do nothing, and you refuse to connect this VFD, then I support that. Better than connecting it to an underdimensionated circuit. But I think you can very well calculate the approx. input rating based on the knowledge about single and three-phase electricity and how a VFD works. And I strongly believe that for a VFD sold for the 2.2 kW spindles they also offer, I am very sure that by dimensionatig a 45 A circuit, you are on the very safe side.

[WaywardWoodworker (Derek Lokee)]

And today I said the same thing:

@WaywardWoodworker

In the absence of specific manufacturer instructions

eg, “the manual”

We can argue semantics on this until the end of time, the fact is that neither of us know the if the data provided by any VFD manufacturer is accurate. They provide a specification that may be wrong, if we follow the law (NEC in North America) we are bound to use their specifications the liability is on them (good luck here with a Chinese manufacturer)

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Hey Derek,

@WaywardWoodworker

We can argue semantics on this until the end of time,

What semantics? Electricity is part of physics, we don’t try to discuss whether god exists.

Derek, if you have tried to explain the way how you as an electrician would deal with connecting this VFD, I didn’t get it. I don’t understand you, and especially not where you want to disagree here.

Either the data from the manufacturer (here: the output ratings) are there and is sufficient to you, and you use a way to calculate what the approx. input rating would be (I suggest this) in order to dimensionate an appropriate supply circuit, OR you say, the data that the manufacturer gives is incomplete or unreliable, and then you refuse to connect this VFD.

I don’t understand where you could see a third possibility.

But I agree with both ways to deal with this VFD.

*yawning*

PS: In this moment, someone leaned over my shoulder and not only asked if I don’t want to come to sleep but also said why do you feed the troll

[WaywardWoodworker (Derek Lokee)]

@Aiph5u

if you have tried to explain the way how you as an electrician would deal with connecting

To be clear - former licensed electrician

If it doesn’t provide an input nameplate rating (or manufacturer instruction (herein “The Manual”) or engineered designs) for the input current, I wouldn’t connect it, the liability would be all on me. Additionally I can’t really take The Manual that comes with HY spindles seriously so even with that in hand I’d probably pass on the work, not worth the risk. EDIT: Looking at the HY Manual only lists 50hz as the input frequency for their products so they can’t be used in North America regardless of any other factors

There is no interpretation of the NEC that grants the authority to an electrician to calculate the input current based on the rated output current of a VFD. This would require the intervention of a licensed electrical engineer which in my experience unless they work for or are retained by the manufacturer of the VFD will pass on the job as well to avoid the liability. In my experience, even though they are granted the authority to override the NEC in some cases, they rarely do and usually they are more restrictive than what the NEC would prescribe in a given situation (eg specifying 10ga wire with 20A overcurrent protection)

The third possibility would be to oversize the input conductors and overcurrent protection which in my view is also not a valid solution as this potentially turns the VFD internal circuity into the overcurrent device (weakest link is likely the traces on the PCB if no internal overcurrent device is provided).

At the end of the day, the only electrical advice ANYONE should take from the internet is to hire a qualified electrician in their jurisdiction. The code is over 400 pages and it’s impossible to give proper advice on it’s implementation (and interpretation) for their given situation over the internet.

And it’s good to see we’ve gotten to the part of the movie where the name calling has begun…

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

@WaywardWoodworker

@Aiph5u

if you have tried to explain the way how you as an electrician would deal with connecting

To be clear - former licensed electrician

I know.

@WaywardWoodworker

If it doesn’t provide an input nameplate rating (or manufacturer instruction (herein “The Manual”) or engineered designs) for the input current, I wouldn’t connect it, the liability would be all on me.

Ah, thank you.

Now you say it clear, I got it.

@WaywardWoodworker

There is no interpretation of the NEC that grants the authority to an electrician to calculate the input current based on the rated output current of a VFD. This would require the intervention of a licensed electrical engineer which in my experience unless they work for or are retained by the manufacturer of the VFD will pass on the job as well to avoid the liability. In my experience, even though they are granted the authority to override the NEC in some cases, they rarely do and usually they are more restrictive than what the NEC would prescribe in a given situation (eg specifying 10ga wire with 20A overcurrent protection)

Understood. It was wrong to expect it from you to calculate it just because I learned how to do these things. I should have known that this might not be allowed to an electrician.

@WaywardWoodworker

The third possibility would be to oversize the input conductors and overcurrent protection which in my view is also not a valid solution as this potentially turns the VFD internal circuity into the overcurrent device (weakest link is likely the traces on the PCB if no internal overcurrent device is provided).

This I don’t agree. If you say neither the needed input ratings are given by the manufacturer nor you are allowed to calculate the input ratings, then you would not even think of dimensionating and connecting something. You would not even know if you oversize something or not.

@WaywardWoodworker

At the end of the day, the only electrical advice ANYONE should take from the internet is to hire a qualified electrician in their jurisdiction.

Yes, but as you pointed out, this does not apply is someone wants to connect the VFD we are talking about. For this, you said, you would need a licensed electrical engineer. I totally agree on that.

@WaywardWoodworker

And it’s good to see we’ve gotten to the part of the movie where the name calling has begun…

Be assured, this was just an illusion. I just found the assumption you could be a troll worth thinking about for a moment, regarding the fact how hard it was that you became understandable on what you wanted to say

[WaywardWoodworker (Derek Lokee)]

I was an EE major in college, the ability to calculate loads vs the authority (licensed Professional Engineer) are two different things.

If the question was “What would you do if this was the only option for your personal shop?” my answer would be different. A 120v VFD would not be my first choice but if this was the only option available to me I’d run it on a 20A circuit with the understanding it may trip the overcurrent device, ruin some projects, break some bits etc.

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Hey Derek,

@WaywardWoodworker

I was an EE major in college,

engineering education and professional practice are regulated very differently in European countries. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland, engineers are trained at universities, technical universities and universities of applied sciences; in Germany alone also via a dual course of study at a university of cooperative education, and in Austria alone also at Höhere Technische Lehranstalten (HTL) and comparable higher vocational schools (in a technical and industrial, agricultural and forestry or environment-related branch of education).

In Germany, only those who have completed a corresponding course of study with a degree are allowed to be called engineers, the term is legally protected. Traditionally, depending on the educational institution, the degrees are called Dipl.-Ing. (FH), Dipl.-Ing. (BA) or Dipl.-Ing. (TU) / (TH), and, after a doctorate, Dr.-Ing. which is also a title in Germany. Since the Bologna Process, the academic titles are B.Sc. or B.Eng. and M.Sc. or M.Eng.

@WaywardWoodworker

A 120v VFD would not be my first choice but if this was the only option available to me I’d run it on a 20A circuit with the understanding it may trip the overcurrent device, ruin some projects, break some bits etc.

Did you see the video where they drive the spindle current to its limits (and presumably the VFD input current too)? I find it helpful to know where the limit could be.

[JointCAM_Gerry (Ger)]

Try a Techniks #41120. Much more expensive than the Chinese imports, but far better quality.

Edit: This might not fit. A standard ER20 thread is 25mm, but the nuts on Amazon are 24mm. If that’s the size you need, a Techniks 33120 would work, but it’s not a hex nut, it’s a standard ER style slot nut.
My spindle is in a box somewhere, so I can’t check the thread size right now.

Edit #2: I see on Amazon that there are two thread size nuts available on Amazon, so you need to check what you have.

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Hey Wayne,

sorry for hijacking your thread by Derek and me last night with the little strange discussion (but pointing to Sean who made the beginning ). I guess I always expect the familiar excitement or even opposition when I say that the American household sockets even with 30 A capacity are not suitable for this popular Chinese 110 V 2.2 kW VFD when run on single-phase input and that the Chinese don’t write the input ratings into the manual and on the nameplate so that the American consumers don’t notice.

After reading it again the next morning, I think I may have been a bit defensive when Derek came in with his manner, which sometimes makes me wonder what exactly is he trying to say. Hope we provided a bit informational content for the others though

[Wayne]

To my original post about getting ER 20A clamping nuts for the so called cheap Chinese spindles please see Works Great.
I have been a senior design development engineer for many years and for the last 10 years been working on electric vehicles and their charging systems. For the power requirements please leave it up to us professionals. You guys sound like a bunch of cackling hens. Not one of you own a component that does not contain cheap China material. Even your European spindles and power units contain China material,

[WaywardWoodworker (Derek Lokee)]

@Wayne

For the power requirements please leave it up to us professionals

What is your professional opinion of the power requirements of a 110v 2.2kW VFD with no stated input current? What feeder size and over current protection would you choose for this application?

For the record I run Haunyang spindles and VFD in my shop and they’ve been great.