Incorrect or missing data on cheap chinese VFDs and spindles

Spindle/VFD (Aftermarket)
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Hey Ziggy, hey all,

here you can see that’s how they do it: They simply omit mandatory information on the nameplate. Here you see: You have 20 A rated output current, but the input current is simply missing, and everyone knows that on a VFD (where the output current refers to the current on one of the three phases), on single-phase input VFDs the input current is more than the double of the output current of one phase. According to IEC 60034-1, the input current rating must be there, but here it is missing. And if they put the “CE” sticker to it, it’s simply illegal, since that means they comply to the standards valid in the EU and they don’t.

That’s how on 110 V models they hide the fact that usually noone in the typical 110 V country (the “freedom voltage” country :slight_smile:) has a circuit with enough ampères so people think they can go with 30 A or something like that, but this is a wrong assumption.

Same for the motor: The current rating is missing. And as explained in another post, on chinese spindles, the power rating is often wrong.

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’CE’ is ”not illegal” if it means china export. :joy:
image

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What is a “typical 110 V country”? It’s not the U.S. The nominal single-phase voltage in the U.S. (and it’s true in every case I’ve measured) is 120V/240V split phase. I don’t know what 3PHAC110±20% is supposed to be. Typical commercial U.S. 3 phase power is 4 Wire 208Y/120V. 120V would be within the 20% tolerance, but the U.S. 60 Hz frequency is outside the ±5 Hz frequency specification

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Hey Barry,

Of course I meant the US, I know that it is 120 V in the US, and I write it that way in many postings, but the mainly North American forum users here keep talking of 110 V persistently, so I think that it is customary in the U.S. to think they have 110 V.

Should I better write “120 V country”? Would U.S. citizen know that I meant them? VFD manufacturers speak of “100 V class”, maybe I should write it that way. I just mentioned that because actually I was referring to the fact that in North America, for 120 V they have NEMA 5-15, 5-20 and 5-30 outlets and circuits with the corresponding current ratings and fuses (max. 30 A), and for a 100 V class VFD with 2.2 kW output, which can suck more than 4.5 kVA at its input on single-phase, 30 A are not enough, and the missing input current rating on the nameplate of these VFDs lets the users in the dark regarding that information.

I have seen in Huanyang VFD manuals that they write you can run these VFDs with one phase at its input connected, OR three phases connected [Huanyang VFD Manual].

I don’t know where you could find 110 V three phase, no North American forum user here ever reported they had three-phase electricity in their homes anyway, but in North America it would be 120 V * sqrt(3) = 208 V if there is three-phase. But I think when people in this North American-dominated forum buy these kinds of VFDs, they run it on one phase input. According to Huanyang’s Model No. nomenclature, “HY02D211B” means 2.2 kW 110 V 1-phase input [1].

Anyway, what I was refering to is that there always should be a current rating for the input current on the nameplate. If they can run with either one or three phase input, you would need two different current ratings.

We have 400 V three-phase electricity here in Europe and 230 V between phase and neutral, from which the 230 V single-phase circuits are laid out. The VFD I bought has a nameplate with all mandatory information for both input and output.

PS: I have found a datasheet of the Huanyang spindles. According to that document, the “GDZ-80-2.2A 110 V” that is shown above is rated 8 A, which means, the 2.2 kW rating would be pure fantasy. With 110 V 8 A you calculate 1.5 kW apparent power, with an assumed power factor of cos φ=0.82 you calculate 1.25 kW real power and with an assumed efficiency of η=85% (estimated rather high for such a cheap motor) you calculate about 1.0 kW mechanical power available at the shaft. With 110 V, to run a 2.2 kW spindle you calculate that you would need about 19 A (per phase) coming from the VFD. The nameplate of the VFD shown above says it can provide 20 A, so it should be able to drive a (real) 110 V 2.2 kW spindle. It’s just that the spindle datasheet mentioned above does not say the spindle shown above is rated with that current. Possibly the 8 A on 110 V version is an erroneous specification, but since the current rating on spindle nameplate is missing… :frowning:

EDIT: I followed the link you provided @Ziggy, (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LG233LM) and there they say 20 A. Is this link correct for your spindle? On the image it reads “GDZ-80-2.2c” instead of “GDZ-80-2.2A”. So if it is rated 20 A, then it’s a 110 V 2.2 kW spindle and it matches the VFD – and the spindle datasheet I mentioned above contains wrong information by saying 8 A for the 110 V version.

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I think the layperson who has a passing familiarity but not a technical one with power in the US is still going to call it 110 and 220.

Looking at various high end vendors associated with this hobby, sawstop refers to their 3 HP saw as “230V”. The outlets and fixtures you see in a hardware store are often marked as being for 125V / 250V.

Laguna refers to my 1412 bandsaw as a “110 model that feels like 220”.

PwnCNC refers to their spindle kits as 110 and 220v.

My remote switches say 110v and 220v.

At my house I receive 116V and 232V power consistently.

Offhand the only tool i can think of that is clearly marked as 240V is my cheap harbor freight welder.

You’re right that 120/240 is correct but with such wide variability among industries is there any surprise that people settled on 110V as the go-to due to its familiarity?

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Hey all,

1024px-World_Map_of_Mains_Voltages_and_Frequencies,_Detailed.svg
1024px-World_Map_of_Mains_Voltages_and_Frequencies,_Detailed.svg1024×520 121 KB

– Source: SomnusDe, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons
Mains electricity by country

seems that countries with really 110 V / 60 Hz are only a few (Cuba, Haiti, Dom. Rep., Honduras, Panama, and Taiwan :slight_smile:) Japan has 100 V with mixed 50/60 Hz based on district

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It’s because the US language is slow to update. AC voltages slowly increased from 110v to120v, passing thru several intermediates. Since it last changed in the ‘60s, it’s easy to see why everyone in the US still calls it 110v from its 1800s introduction :laughing:

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Hey Mitch,

in Europe many speak of 380/220 V the same way, even if we have 400/230 V today.

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Just out of curiosity, are circuits in Europe typically ran with a neutral like how US appliances often use 4 wire romex?

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Hey Echd,

of course, you need the neutral to get 230 V from the 400 V three-phase electricity. 400 V is between the phases, 230 V is between one phase and neutral. For a washing machine with a 3-phase motor or for a VFD with three-phase input, you don’t need the neutral.

On older residential installations you still often find the Perilex plug/socket for three-phase electric stoves or washing machines, but today the IEC 60309 plugs and sockets are used in the industry and in workshops.

Single-phase plugs and sockets of domestic mains differ between countries, but variants of CEE 7 are widespread. Great Britain has a different plug/socket system. In Germany and France, you usually find the common CEE 7/7 hybrid plug that fits in both French and German “Schuko” sockets.

For unearthed, double-isolated class II devices, you find the Europlug everywhere. It has no corresponding socket but is made to fit a variety of domestic European sockets.

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Makes sense. Always good to know random things of that nature.

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Hey all,

here you can see what VFD nameplates usually look like.

Here a 400-V-class three-phase input 1.5 kW VFD:

Omron_MX2_Manual_Nameplate
–Source: Omron MX2 User’s Manual

Here a 200-V-class single-phase input 2.2 kW VFD:

Omron_MX2_Nameplate_1Ph

You can clearly see what input current the VFD will draw (and thus what minimum circuit current dimensioning / fuse you need).

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Yes that can be a little confusing. The NEMA standards for single phase induction motors specify Nameplate voltages of 115V and 230V (and others). These are designed to be used with nominal service voltages of 120V and 240V to account for voltage drop on the conductors. NEMA standard receptacle and plug ratings are for the maximum voltage that they are rated for, which may be higher than the nominal service voltage. Using these motors and outlets on U.S. circuits is what they were designed to do.

The point I think Aiph5u was making is that these Chinese components do not supply the required information to install them in a Code-compliant manner. Part of it I think is that the nominal voltage in China is 220V, which is rare anywhere else. EU harmonized nominal is 230V (with a wide tolerance to account for previous slightly different country values). What provided here is insufficient and makes no sense. When I installed the circuit for the HVAC system for my garage. the nameplate listed the allowable input voltage range, the Full Load Amperage, and the Running Load Amperage. To make things easier, it even just listed the circuit ampacity and maximum fuse size. None of that is here. What is here is hard to believe. 2.2 Kw (3 HP) at 110V? I took a look at spec sheets for VFDs available domestically like from Automation Direct. A VFD that drives a 2.2 KW motor needs an 230V input with a 22A rated current and a 25 breaker size. For a 115V input, the largest motor supported is 1.5 HP, and the input is specified as 26.5A with a 32A breaker.

That would be unusual; maybe in apartments. But 3 phase 120/208 is typical in light commercial spaces; where someone might rent a small space for their shop and their growing business.

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In Europe, it’s 230V Line-to-Neutral. A typical branch circuit will be 3 wires just like the U.S.: hot, neutral, and the grounding conductor.

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I assume he meant residential, where it would be fairly uncommon outside of very dedicated wood and metalworking hobbyists.

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Hey all,

as far as I know, you in North America have split-phase electricity 240/120 V in residential areas and three-phase electricity only in commercial and industrial areas. Here in Europe we have three-phase power everywhere (400/230 V). I have never heard of split-phase electricity in Europe.

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Three phase service may supply an apartment building (or small commercial space), but the individual tenant will just get single split-phase service. The difference is that it’s 120V/208V rather than 120V/240V.

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I have been unable to find the manual for this VFD (the HY02D211B). it appears you can’t even submit a question for it on the Amazon site. I’d love to see what they list as the input current requirements. Anyone have better luck?

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The manual is a bit infuriating. But after a while you start to understand the broken English. They use the same manual for all of their models I think. I can attach it here if you can’t find it.

You can ask the seller a question on Amazon. I did. I did this a lot because their English leaves a bit to be desired so I had to get very specific with my questions. But HY always did answer. Mainly I was asking the information that was not labeled on the nameplate as Aiph5u was lamenting. There were some other settings I didn’t understand as well. Don’t expect too much help there though. I found lots of forums with people using this spindle and posting their settings.

Yes, it is a cheap Chinese spindle. That being said, it doesn’t cost what a nice German spindle does. Essentially the HY spindles are “the cleanest dirty shirts in the closet.”

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20230220_205027
20230220_2050271920×2560 664 KB

I have the 1.5kw 110 and 2.2kw 220. Both honestly work fine. I upgraded to the 220 mainly to take advantage of 1/2 inch bits… a 3 inch surfacing bit will make quick work of flattening slabs.

I bought a full conplement of 1/2 bits for general cnc use as well but honestly doubt ill ever get much use out of them on something the size of my journeyman. If I did full sheet goods we might be in business…

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