So here is what I have a Journeyman (upgraded from a Woodworker) with a QCW, but running a router. My lovely spouse gave me a budget for a spindle. ( I think she doesn’t like the screaming in the basement)
Having done some carves that “need” 3-4 bit changes ( x4 for a double sided tiled part) I find this worse than a manual transmission stopped on a hill. Now I know some folks have done the deed … ( TMToronto looking your way) so seeking wisdom.
I guess my desired machine:
Ideally I am thinking a 2.2 kw liquid cooled spindle (want to spin 1/2" shanks)
a tool changer that holds 4-5 tools
cur area of 48x32 is fine though 48x48 sure why note
Am I better to:
Sell a good machine
*Buy something else like an Avid 4’x4’ that seems to be built from the ground up for this
Upgrade the Journeyman myself
Upgrade the Journeyman the 1F
Now what I don’t want, is a Frankenstein machine that only I can support.
To upgrade, I think I will need:
Spindle mount ( will I need the Z-20 Heavy duty slider)
Spindle package
A new controller (Buildbotics doesn’t seem to support a tool changer) … the Masso G3 touch?
Will I need to add limit switches?
Will I need to replace motors?
All the associated tool changer “gear”
I know this is not gonna be cheap … but besides Christmas, I have sold a few things… so I need a target for the number of pennies.
There you have it, I am seeking wisdom from those who have waded into the swamp.
( if Onefinity is looking for a Beta tester with a few pennies who is a retired (40 yr) Mech Eng and Software devoloper I am your guy… is that sucking up enough?)
Ok more thoughts … why are bit changes so much a pain?
The actual bit change
The “Z” height probe
Would it be worth saving $1k to automate the the Z height but still have to manually swap bits … maybe … I think Shapeoko calls it a bitsetter? I think this would cut in half the time for a bit change
About 5 years ago I purchased a Tormach mill. Although a different type of machining, similar in philosophy. It is common to have multiple tools needed for a single job. And then if you get into a production job, changing tools presents risk. The tool changer was more than $5000 however there was equity in this option especially as it wasn’t a DIY. I ended up machining more wood than steel on the Tormach so I sold it and purchased a Onefinity. I would have loved to have had the option of a Masso controller and the upcoming tool change as it brings the equipment closer to manufacturing production machine. I always consider the equity in anything I purchase as I may not keep it for a lifetime. OEM products always maintain a higher equity ratio compared to a DIY, although DIY can be more satisfying and a great learning experience.
Adding on to this, you could also go 1/2 way and have a “quick change” set-up. Still use an ATC spindle or adapter, but you have all your tools pre-loaded into ISO tapered tool holders off to the side. When it’s time to change tools, you just swap the tool + tool holder in the spindle, use a bit setter to re-measure, and off you go on the next op! You could also measure them all before the job (in theory), if you’re running production.
The other value of this approach is to maintain the entire travel of the machine. Linear tool racks take up space that could otherwise be maintained as precious cutting area.
@TMToronto did you consider this during your build? Maybe it’s easy to just go all the way once you get to this point… not sure how the costs add up from here on out. It seems like with the Masso this could be relatively simple to implement. What am I missing?
Masso makes adding and configuring an ATC set-up straightforward, it is all the extra knowledge and work that costs in time and money. I built my own system because I had the time, most of the money ( ), and wanted to learn as much as I could - and I like (need) to design and build my own things. No regrets.
To get a fully functioning ATC done, in my mind safely, costs a lot of money. You also have to invest a lot of time learning, researching, sourcing - everything (electronics, pneumatics, etc.) - which is a commitment you need to be ready for and enjoy.
If I were to add up everything, I have invested at least $5-6K, most likely more - again for what I have, no regrets.
As an example of a ‘non DIY-ish’ option there is a ‘turn key’ package for adding an ATC to AVID’s CNCs. It is about $4.3K US, and still requires spindle mount, compressor, homing sensors, and a tool rack.
So I think $4-6K for full ATC functionality, regardless of how you decide to get there.
Space saving was never an important consideration for me, as I liked the size of the Woodworker for my needs. Also, I wanted my tool rack to be fixed (I could build a retractable rack, but I just don’t trust the rigidity and repeatability of a moving option). I put a fair bit of time into the measuring, designing, testing (repeat) of my tool rack, and I really have not lost too much of the working area - again, for what I have planned I do not need the space.
Did you by chance use something like this from Mechatron or another brand?
I poked around in the Masso forums and found the support that is built into the Masso controller. I’m interested to know if you cobbled together individual components or if you just purchased a group of components from a manufacturer as a VFD, spindle, water pump, air pump package.
I got to looking at spindle tear-downs and discovered that some manufactures (the less expensive types) are cheating with lesser components advertised as something else.
Apart from purchasing the Onefinity Woodworker, Jianken ATC spindle, and Hitachi WJ200 VFD, I sourced and built everything else around it myself to end up with my ATC system - electronics enclosure and wiring, VFD enclosure and wiring, pneumatics enclosure and wiring/air lines, etc…
You can get a better idea if you look up my “Masso G3 ATC build update…” posts in the forum.
So far my spindle is performing as expected, but it is relatively new. I had to take a leap of faith and trust an overseas manufacturer as it was the only option I could afford for the functionality I wanted. Now that I have a machine that can make machines, I am not limited as much by spindle form factor as I could machine any Z assembly or adapter plates I would need for, as an example, A CNCDepot kit.
), and wanted to learn as much as I could - and I like (need) to design and build my own things. No regrets.