Carving tall, thin walls in a curved shape

Machines (Original/PRO) How To
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Yes, the 330 is fully hollow but it’s not trying to leverage any type of “acoustic” sound. Even the full size hollow body guitars of Gibson (175, L5, Super 400, etc.) and most other firms strictly use a pickup run through an amplifier. Some firms, such as PRS, have put Piezo-equipped bridges on their instruments so that you can get sort of an acoustic sound and they either blend the outputs or use a stereo jack such that one side is the electric (magnetic) pickup and the other is the piezo (acoustic sound).

However, other than being hollow or semi-hollow, there is no real attempt to make the guitar have more of an ‘acoustic’ voice that would be more suggestive of a typical steel string acoustic guitar like one would associate with a Martin, Taylor, etc. So by “hybrid,” I’m focusing on an instrument that would have a truly acoustic voice (one your could hear clearly without plugging it into an amp/PA) and also have a true electric guitar sound when plugged; one that you could play clean and distorted viably (without howling with feedback).

Most folks don’t find a simple piezo bridge on an otherwise electric guitar that useful for getting a real acoustic type of sound; even if the guitar is hollow. The Godin examples is more of a true attempt at getting both.

Here’s another firm that’s doing cool things in this space. Their pickup system is very cool because it’s made to be used with phosphor bronze strings which are typically used on true acoustic guitars but the phosphor wraps on the thicker strings aren’t able to be made magnetic and thus you can’t use them with regular pickups. Great explanation here. And check out the CNC carved top at 4:28 of the video. You can see the carving tool path scars left behind. It looks like they need to Tram their machine!!

23

Hey Jim,

I thank you for the explanations and the links.

I am playing a nylon-strung classic guitar that is a solid body with a few “sound chambers” but those are invisible. I bought it many years ago when I moved from a house on the countryside into an apartment, I did not want the neighbours to hear what I play. Also I hoped to do recording directly to the mixer with no microphone. But I was never convinced of its pickup which is a Shadow SH-90, so I used it mainly for practice but not for recording, although I read that some members of the Gipsy Kings used the same model on some of their recordings.

Image: Shadow SH-090 SKU: 8000000120

On another solid-body classic guitar with nylon strings, I would like to have a better electrical sound. I would have loved to test Takamine’s Palathetic pickup which has an extremely good reputation, I studied its construction and it is very convincing, but I was not able to get one.


Image: Takamine Palathetic pickup – Source: Reverb.com – The History of Acoustic Guitar Pickups

They sell them only as part of a Takamine acoustic guitar. So I still need a solution and will follow the links to the Cole Clark solution that I did not know until yet. Thanks!

EDIT:
After having checked Cole Clark True Hybrid HSS Demo, Cole Clark FAQ and Cole Clark Pickups, I realize that they focus on steel strung guitars and their goal is a hybrid pickup on such a guitar. Unfortunately no mentioning of nylon strings, also I did not find any details of their under-saddle piezo pickup nor wether I could buy one.

In short, what they present is:

The Cole Clark PG3 patented pickup system is the most acoustic sounding pickup available. We use a piezo system for the bottom end, a face sensor for the mid range and a microphone for the high end. The pickup has a huge dynamic range, sounds the same plugged in as it does unplugged and has no feedback issues, except at the highest stage volumes.

Cole Clark PG3 pickup system.

Released in 2022, the PG3’s improved microphone for extreme highs, altered frequency filter between the mic and face sensor and new configuration between the face sensor and bridge pickup delivers our most advanced, dynamic and natural sounding plugged in experience yet.

The concept behind our pickup technology is best explained by comparing it to an audio system. A P.A usually consists of sub woofers, speakers and horns. Each component is designed to hear a range of frequencies they are best equipped to handle, with crossover points for frequencies best heard by the next component. Cole Clark uses the same philosophy, combining a piezo system for the bottom end, a patented face sensor for the mid range and a microphone for the top end.

Under Saddle Piezo

The piezo system utilizes 6 individual piezo elements suspended under the bridge saddle which we believe is the best and most dynamic type of piezo system available.

Face Sensor

We know that the face/top is the most important component to the sound of an acoustic guitar, so it makes sense that we utilize that tone when amplifying the guitar. We do this with our unique face sensor which is specifically designed for the mid range. We use a patented blend control which blends in the amount of face sensor required to go with the piezo sound or to completely replace the piezo in the mid range. This goes a long way in removing the ‘piezo quack’, delivering a more natural tone. With a maximum crossover point of 350hz, the face sensor cannot hear any frequency in it’s feedback zone, instead leaving those frequencies to the under saddle piezo.

Microphone

The third element is a condenser microphone for the top end. This microphone is set well above any frequency zone that could cause it to feed and is purely there to take the ‘ping’ out of the piezo if there is some piezo blended through at full range.

So this is very interesting as they focus on an acoustic guitar, and I like that you make the walls with a shape like an electric guitar like the Stratocaster introduced. Also they seem to exclusively focus on steel strung guitars. The only reference to a nylon-strung guitar I found ontheir web site is the CR21C/ACE of Baton Rouge Guitars from Germany that Cole Clark sells in Australia :frowning: They use the Cole Clark PG3 hybrid pickup system.

I would be very interested in finding or even developing myself a bridge piezo pickup for true solid body guitars with nylon strings.

Godin doesn’t seem to offer its piezo pickups anymore.

I also watched the video you linked, Cole Clark Guitars True Hybrid Demo | NAMM 2023 that shows the top.

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Hey Jim,

yes, that is true, and besides classical guitar, I mostly play Jazz archtops, and I own some from the 1950s that have either no pickup at all or a small electromagnetic neck pickup attached to the end of the fretboard. I used one of these guitars to experiment with piezo pickups that you stick to the top, or like on violins that you put under the movable bridge, but this was not satisfactory. At the moment, I got excellent results only by using a half-inch condenser microphone, so I would love to find something that is not a microphone because you also get some noise of the environment catched on the recording sometimes.

But first of all I would love to find an under-saddle pickup for a classical guitar that is a solid-body guitar with nylon strings, a piezo system that really sounds good.

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Hey @Aiph5u , that’s amazing! You’ve been such a big help here on the 1F forum (not only one of the smartest but you take the time to really assist; thanks from everyone!!), I had no idea that you’re into these types of guitars too! For many, these in-depth guitar-focused discussions are probably boring but I live for this stuff.

Regarding getting a good nylon string sound electronically, it’s something that I’ve chased as well. Right now, I’m using a Gibson Chet Atkins CE. (link and link). It starts off with a pretty good tone (how they get it) but I also then run it through a Fishman Aura Spectrum. It’s an Impulse Response unit that uses the signal to trigger a studio-mic’d sound with the sound of the guitar (typically via a piezo but the Chet CE is a bit different). The Fishman unit has a “Nylon” setting with 16 different versions.

I’m going to build a nylon “gypsy” version of my design as well. Like you, I’m experimenting with different amplification methods for archtop guitars and leveraging different types of microphones, transducers, etc. is right on the money. I’m hearing the best results from mixing different types and that’s where the Cole Clark folks are doing some interesting things. Fishman (and others, like Baggs) makes some blended options as well. Have you heard of AMT microphones? Check them out.. Pat Metheny is real big on them but instead of using their instrument mounts, he puts them inside. But no in an optimum position IMHO. What type of condenser mic did you try inside? Where and how you mount it?

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26

Hey Jim,

I would have loved to test the six-way under-saddle pickup system of the Gibson variant that you linked here, but my model is the Epiphone Chet Atkins CEC that was made in the early 2000s in the Korea factory. It differs by the pickup, it “only” has a mono Shadow SH-90 that I don’t particularly like. It has six individual piezo blocks inside that are wired in series to a mono output. A small preamp with volume/tone and a 9 V battery. The bridge is one-piece but has six divisions that allow different pressure for each string to the degree it can be bent, but no chance to adjust the volume of a particular string.

Both the Gibson variant as well as the Godin Multiac seemed too expensive to me at that time. I had to invest in more than one instrument to fit the requirements of living in an apartment at that time.

The best results for recording an archtop I obtained was with a 1/2" microphone at a distance of about 40–50 cm, pointed towards middle of the body where my fingers play. The microphone was a DIY with a capsule of a set of two capsules I bought in the eighties. I made an XY microphone of them later.