Delayed shutdown of the 24v relay (aftermarket spindle)

Hello everybody.
I use 2.2kw spindle and huanyang vdf.
I control the suction and the cooling pump with the 24v relay of the vfd
I am adding water cooling radiators to the circuit.
I was wondering if it is possible to easily delay this relay or if I need to add a time delay relay.
My idea is that the coolant pump still runs a bit after the spindle stops.
I couldn’t find any info on this, if anyone has done this.

Hey Fred,

with my VFD, the Omron MX2, which is practically identical to Hitachi WJ200, this is easily possible by programming the intelligent output to have a transition delay:

– Source: Omron MX2 Manual

I have studied the Huanyang HY Series manual, and although they offer a timer, it is not easy to make it a transition timer for the end of the RUN phase to simply let the Multi-output on a little longer. At least not what my reflection has brought me to so far :slight_smile:

You say you use the 24 V output so you mean PD050 (Multi-output “DRV”) I assume, to switch both dust collection and water coolant pump on and off, so I assume you set PD050 to “01” (output is active when VFD is in RUN mode).

The timers the Huanyang HY offers can be used together with any of its Multi-outputs by setting PD050–PD053 to 18 (for Timer 1) or 19 (for Timer 2) but it would make the selected output active for the duration programmed in PD063 (for Timer 1) or PD064 (for Timer 2). You would choose another output (e.g. FA/FB/FC) and wire it in a way that it switches an external relay that is in parallel to your first relay control, which means, it would make the dust collection and the water coolant pump on for the duration of the timer, but not before and not after, but independently of the state of the other relay output. The counter is activated by triggering a Multi-input which you need to choose from Multi-Inputs 1-6 (PD044–PD049) and set it to 12 (for Timer 1 start) or 13 (for Timer 2 start), but you would then need an event to trigger it and for this, you would need another more output and to what would you program it? This is where I am with trying to think (in the heat) :slight_smile:

At the moment, I think if I had bought the Huanyang, I would implement a delay to let the water pump on for a few minutes more with the external relay, by attaching it to a NE555 universal programmable timer. If you are not a pcb solderer, you could look for “relay delay NE555” in the WWW or at ebay for modules with screw terminals :wink:

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Hi Aiph5u.
I use FA/FB/FC PD052:2
and this relay Industrielles Halbleiterrelais Ssr 40A mit Schutzflagge Ssr-40DA 40A DC-Steuerung AC Hfmqv | Fruugo CH
If I’m not talking nonsense it’s 24v and the NE555 is 12 v

sorry the NE 555 also exists in 24v

Hey Fred,

the NE555 is “probably the most popular integrated circuit ever made” [1] :slight_smile:

The chip itself usually works with up to 16 V, but if you buy a module that says “24 V supply” or “24 V input power”, I would assume it has a voltage regulator onboard to drive the NE555. The 0–30 V DC or 0–250 V AC “load power” usually mean the voltage that the onboard relay can switch.

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I’ll try that, do you have a wiring diagram?

Hey Fred,

not at the moment, no time this evening, if you want to buy one of the modules at ebay I don’t know how they are wired to control the start of the delay. I will see if I can help you tomorrow, okay?

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No problem it’s late for me.

I found that.

I think it should be fine.
To connect it I thought in series between the vdf and the relay which controls the 230v. Just wondering for the x1, maybe bridging from the +

Hey Fred,

I was just ready to start to have a look at how those modules at ebay are possibly wired, when I saw your posting and your link:

Probably any electronics engineer will say it’s total overkill to use a microcontroller like the STC 8G1K08 (a Intel MCS-51 (8051) specimen) instead of a programmable interval timer like the NE 555, but if you get a µC-based module at this price! :slight_smile:

In fact, either way, you would not really need the relay cascade because a NE 555 module with its driver transistor would already be able to drive the control input of your SSR directly, and a µC delay would too, but yes, if you depend on using ready-made modules with screw terminals, I would switch the control input of your SSR with the onboard relay of the delay module. At least if your load to be switched (dust collector, pump, etc.) consumes more than the ampères that the module can switch (10 A here for the blue electromagnetic relay on the module).

Please report how it works.

Making a circuit diagram for a NE-555-based delay for a relay was on my list anyway, but if you have success earlier, please let us know! :slight_smile:

That’s the problem with the no-name china modules where you have neither a datasheet nor support.

But if you search for TRM01 module, some vendors have different function descriptions which may help:

It seems always auto-translated from chinese anyway though :frowning:

Don’t forget this is a microcontroller so it is far more difficult to guess (or to disassemble or decompile) what the manufacturer programmed, than looking at the circuit of a programmable interval timer like the NE 555

I would try function 2 and feed x1 with DC+ input

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I’m not sure I understand, the link I put for the self-timer is marked as being a super 555.

The SSR is already installed and allows me to manage the 230v, the vdf would have done it alone?

Indeed I am not able to solder printed circuits.

For the 10A It should be fine since the VDF relay is also 10A.

Yes with Chinese equipment it’s a bit of a lottery but they make what you order them :grinning:.
Finally my spindle and my vdf are Chinese and they work.

For the function are you sure I would have said the F4 friends it is not very clear to me :thinking:.

And for the output I would say NO and COM.

If I order this model is that I manage to make it all work, I would obviously come back to keep you informed and that it can be useful to someone else.

Hey Fred,

this seems to be a marketing advantage, the module does what usually a NE 555 does, but internally it makes it with a microcontroller. They seem to assume that you would search for “555”, and they were right! The use of a microcontoller allows it to be more versatile: It has more modes that you can simply switch between (the four functions you can select with the button and where the four LEDs 1-4 on the module pcb indicate which one you have selected), while with an ordinary NE 555, you would have to alter the circuit / the components or wiring of the module if you want to have another function. So there’s nothing wrong if you use such a µC-based module. It could possibly be even simpler since I am not sure how the NE 555 modules available are exactly wired and it could be necessary to alter the circuit.

I will be there to help you, I just don’t always have the time immediately. but electronics is fun for me since childhood

what do you mean with this?

No worries about the delay, I already appreciate the helping hand. Thanks for that
If I sent the result of my search fast enough it’s because I like to find solutions to my problems and if I find me, someone else doesn’t need to do it.

Given what you just told me I think I’m going to choose this module, I don’t know how to modify these circuits and I’m going to damage everything

For function F2 or F4 by reading what is written on the site I would have chosen function 4 and not 2, but you seem to be much better at mastering this kind of thing than me

Hey Fred,

I agree.

I am not sure with the functions either as the auto-translated chinese is not trivial. But you can experiment. This is easier as you probably don’t need to alter a circuit with this module.

I will try to find the time to design and draw a “normal” NE 555-based delay circuit diagram anyway (will post anything) but I have so much to do so you could be faster.

Feel free to ask questions.

Everything is ordered, all you have to do is wait

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That’s it I received the TRM01.
I tried plugging it in today.
Obviously It would have been too easy for it to work the first time.
I managed to make it work, to choose the function but it does not start what is plugged in after as if there was no power.
After some research I think you have to do as in the picture.
I will test that tomorrow.

It’s not the same, I’m not the k1 or the display but I think the power supply principle is the same

Hey Fred,

welcome back!

I received a lot of electronic components from my supplier too. I ordered nice DIN-rail cases too, with screw terminals. I plan a single and a double relay with NE 555-based delay for DIN rail. I am testing on breadboard, and am making schematics. I plan to make a pcb for the Omron G4A relays and ICM7555. Unfortunately I have also a lot of other things to do so my progress is not as fast as I’d want :).

I think the problem with the chinese timer delay modules that I don’t know as I never ordered one, is how to make it be triggered by the cut of the power. In my own design, of course I know how to implement that, but I don’t know how they implement it on the chinese modules. I see that they have a switch to trigger the start of the delay, but what you need instead, is considering that you have the 24 V power on from the VFD relay output as long as the VFD is in RUN mode, and when the spindle is stopped, the power of the VFD relay output is cut AND THEN THIS SHALL trigger the start of the delay in a way to let the 24 V remain on for the delay time.

Your SSR trigger input should be at the output of the blue relay on the module, it’s just you got to experiment what to do with the trigger input of the timer module. I would start with bridging it with the DC+ input and see what happens.

By the way, I had a look at the document on website where they propagate the use of a SSR relay and especially the FOTEK SSR-40, which everyone seems to use, which is this document. Why do they use a SSR, and not an electromagnetic relay like Omron G4A? I think it’s because SSR’s need only a very small trigger current, and as you maybe know, on Buildbotics and Onefinity Controllers, the 25-pin I/O port’s pins are directly the pins of the internal AVR microcontroller, with no optocouplers (as on Masso), no driver transistors to protect these inputs and to provide more current for triggering things, so these AVR microncontroller outputs can only deliver extremely low currents. The relay output of a VFD should be able give a little more, but is also very limited, so connecting a SSR with its low input current needed does not require additional parts. I think that’s why they propagate its use.

SSRs have other advantages and are sometimes a good choice, but they also have a lot of disadvantages compared to electromagnetic relays.

But be aware that there are mainly counterfeits of FOTEK SSR-40 out there. When I tried to look for one, I was not able to find an original. All were counterfeits, which means they can burn up on much less power than rated on nameplate! See here for details (link provided by Tom @TMToronto, many thanks!)

Examples for alternatives:

But I would always use no SSR but better an electromagnetic relay.

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Indeed the fact that the vfd relay is cut may be a problem.
It is on the vdf relay that it would be necessary to intervene, or to have a separate 24v power supply.
I’ll try my idea and see if it works or not.

Hey Fred,

if you wire the relay output FA/FB/FC of the HY VFD the way most people do to switch your SSR, you feed it from a +24 V screw terminal output on the VFD. This output should have permanently 24 V. Whether or not it is enough to drive the module I don’t know, I haven’t found any current rating in the Huanyang HY series manual. Cheap chinese VFD manuals are quite incomplete.

I made a diagram it’s easier for me
Here is my current wiring

Are you suggesting something like this?

I’m really not on wiring :grinning:

I wonder if the 24 v is not cut once the pin stops