Spindle/Z Slider dropping / Spindle drop down on Poweroff/Estop (Elite Series)

Great, keeps us posted.

Some things I noticed on your diagram:

You do not have power to your brake. The relay NO/NC should allow 24VDC (?) for your brake to flow or not (energize/deenergize).

I believe the ES output is HIGH when all is good, and goes LOW when the Estop button is pressed. You have your brake connected to the NC terminal. When the ES is in a safe state, it will be high, and the relay will be in the NO setting, which means your brake circuit will be open. If your brake is like mine, the coil needs to be energized to release the spring operated pad that stops the shaft turning. If this is true for yours, you need power to the brake coil when the ES circuit is in the safe or HIGH state, and the brake circuit should connect to the NO terminal of the relay.

I added a flyback diode to my brake circuit - I do this for my pneumatic solenoids as well - to protect against back EMF.

Noted. Thank you.
What’s the point of using the relay if it doesn’t pass power? I was basing it off the laser in the screen shot you presented from masso. I was under the impression the relay common was hot where the brake is bipolar and doesn’t matter which wire is used. I adjusted the diagram here

Yes. A spring so that when power is applied it releases, power is cut it closes making it seemingly impossible to move.

I’m assuming with a flyback diode as long as it is rated greater than or equal to the load will be fine as long as the anode is facing the power source, otherwise yeah, it won’t work… and if it does its too weak. I didn’t include it on the updated diagram, but after the relay before the brake on the positive would be where I’ve gathered it would go.

I’ve only recently ɓranched into this small electrical stuff, so forgive me for being naive, I’m used to working with 12 & 14, /2 & /3 wire or 22-24 guage network cable.

I believe the VDC to the relay is to power the coils.

I am fairly new to this as well, and started my CNC build about two years ago. At that time I knew nothing about any of this - CNC, CAD/CAM, electronics, pneumatics, etc. But I love to learn, design, and build, so after retiring it has become a perfect hobby for me.

The Masso experts will let you know if I am wrong about any of my comments/suggestions.

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they all do because of the ball screw pitch

I think the older x50s have a different pitch

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Hey Marcel, hey all,

precisely. The Z-20 assembly has a much steeper ball screw than the original Z-16 assenbly (advertised as “increased speed”).

There could be a number of reasons to replace the Z ball screw on the Z-20 by a less steeper one. Besides reducing the problem reported by the original poster, i.e. by having less resistance against downward motion of the spindle by gravity when stepper is unpowered, another reason could be to have the finer Z resolution that you had with the Z-16 assembly on Original Series.

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Hey all,

I received a private message asking if there is no simple answer to this issue. Because when I answer privately, then only one person benefits, but not all, so I try to avoid that, so my answer is here:

You are right, there is no simple answer. The answer would be simple if you start from zero and build your own machine, then you simple choose a stepper that has the brake integrated and the driver that has a pin for the brake and the problem is solved. But if you have an Elite/Masso with the Masso closed-loop stepper motors with integrated stepper drivers, I would assume you would want the same motor/driver, but with brake, if possible. But they are not available with brake. So the solution for Elite/Masso would be:

  1. Either you choose a different stepper motor, but one with brake integrated, and use the Masso Documentation to make it run with the Masso G3 Touch Controller. Besides the stepper, you need a driver, or a stepper with integrated driver. To make wiring simple, you would choose a driver which supports the brake already with a pin that is for the brake control. You will also need to power supply the brake.

    The Masso G3 supports a lot of different steppers/drivers, so this is clearly possible, see here for examples. I assume Onefinity will give you no support for that, but the Masso community/forum probably will.

  2. or you retrofit a separate brake. Since your Elite motor to my knowledge has no shaft that protrudes at its end, you will have to put the brake in front of the stepper, between the stepper and the ball screw, with an additional coupler. If you searched the forum, you know that Tom @TMToronto found one and could possibly tell you more (link). I have no experience with retrofitting a brake to a stepper.

But if it’s the problem that arose when switching to a heavy spindle, that comes down with gravity when on Masso startup you initially hit estop, what I would do first is replace the ball screw with a less steeper one. I wrote that already above: With the switch to the Z-20 assembly that is found on Elite Series and also available as upgrade on Original Series, the Z ball screw pitch was changed. It changed from 4 mm per revolution to 10 mm per revolution. This means that after the electromagnetic holding force is gone when the stepper has got its power cut, the remaining purely magnetic holding force has a lower transmission ratio than with the older, less steeper ball screw, and can now carry much less spindle weight on its own. Plus the friction is lower.

With the old 4 mm / rev ball screw on Z-16 assembly, nearly noone complained about the spindle moving with gravity by itself, when the stepper was powered off. And the spindles were probably the same 2.2 kW water-cooled ER-20 spindles with about 5-6 kg weight. So you see, the problem is not the missing brake, but came up with the much steeper ball screw. And what you will get with replacing ball screw is more detail on Z.

Ball screws are available at CNC components suppliers or directly at the manufacturers (e.g. HIWIN and MISUMI are popular brands).

Disclaimer: I have not tested a Z-20 with another ball screw, I don’t even own a Z-20. I just own a Z-16 with its 16 mm diameter hollow shafts and its 4 mm / rev ball screw, like hundreds of forum members do :wink:

A characteristic feature of the ball screw is its pitch. It is the straight-line distance (“travel”) of the screw nut per revolution of the screw, measured in millimeters. It corresponds to the distance between adjacent thread flanks (for single-start threads). This slope is not equal to the slope of that ramp which results from rolling the running groove to an inclined plane. That ramp slope is the quotient of the two cathets of the slope triangle (stroke distance per circumference) and is usually given as a dimensionless number in percent. The convention of specifying spindle pitches in millimeters and thus relating them to a revolution or the rotational speed instead of the circumference facilitates most calculations for dimensioning a machine axis, since speeds and torques are usually transmitted from the drive motor onward. The pitch, together with the speed in the product, conveniently gives the feed. However, the geometry of the ramp rolled up to the screw plays a significant role in the design of the ball screws.

– Source: Ball screw – Wikipedia (DE)

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I am just waiting on one component to get the brake working according to what smart people say. Brown Santa (UPS) should deliver it Tuesday and everything is as wired as it can be until then.

Thus far the shopping list includes from most expensive to least as memory serves: the brake, masso relay, power box, 24v power supply, couple of computer fans, 18# power cord with a thing so it can’t come out, 22# wire, toggle switch, 1a & 3a fuses and holders, p4004 diode, some soldering and other various connectors (t-splice, butt splice, ferrule connector, bullet connector, spade connectors (male & female), spade-U type. There’s a big variation because it’s what i had in the appropriate guage needed).

All in, I’m a little over my $400 target, but less than $500 with everything extra i bought/used (sometimes i tend to just throw money at a problem and go overboard with things i don’t need), but with all the equipment it opens the door for other things i can do… like i would like a crosshair laser, and that would make it a very easy to add since all the major expenses covered it. Really the hard part about the crosshair laser is finding a suitable mounting location/mechanism that is both consistent and doesn’t impede travel

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Although these are added expenses, I definitely agree that it will open the door to future functionality as you mention.

Although I am currently not using the dry run laser pointer for the work I am currently doing, I did have one set up. I designed and 3D printed a holder that mounted to the front of the z axis clamp - I think where people mount the JTech laser. It allows for the mounting of an aluminum mount I found that holds the cross hair laser pointer I bought. If you decide on a similar solution I can look for the file and the sources of components used. I found that the crosshair pointer focus and locate precision did not vary too much over the Z axis travel, but I did try to use it at one height. I would probably use it for rough alignment and X/Y zeroing of oversized sheet stock, or to trace gcode toolpath(s) to check the fit on the stock.

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Thanks. I had considered that, but i was unsure about z height causing variance…
I do my 3d carves in the canter and I typically undersize the workpiece in the software so as long as it’s roughly in a ¼ diameter, it should be fine unless I’m fighting a knot in the design.

Bee tee dubs, I found that front mount ineffective in holding the jtech laser, and theyre either going to release an 80mm elite friendly mount, or already did. I inquired and was offered a prototype, and i said i couldn’t think of improvements… before getting it i had reservations, but they seemed to adequately compensate for what i was trying to accomplish

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After following this and a couple other discussions, I think I’ve conceded that the lack of z retention is something I’ll learn to live with. I don’t like the idea of potentially damaging my work if I have to push the e-stop, but the incredible time savings are a large part of why I upgraded to the Elite and I don’t think I can go back to a 4mm ball screw.

I am curious about the potential danger to the steppers though. How large of an unpowered drop do people think would result in damage to the steppers? To avoid the drop at startup after pressing e-stop, I’ve been dropping my z axis as low as it will go (no bit) before turning off the machine. I noticed that after I turn it off, the spindle drops an additional tiny amount (<1/8th in). Is this putting my z stepper at risk?

Hey Captain,

I don’t think so. When an electric motor is turned, it acts as a generator, so the only thing that could get harm would be the semiconductors in the driver, but I don’t think the little amount of current would do harm and I assume the driver has some incoming current protection.

For my setup I will use a stepper motor with integrated brake but I don’t plan to update to a Z-20 assembly. I rather will replace the entire Z assembly with something else. The good thing is, for Onefinity Original Series, a version of the open-loop stepper with integrated brake is available (unlike with the Masso steppers)

As I elaborated somewhere in the forum, usually for a machine like a CNC there should be implemented a stop category that considers the risk assessment. And this would be a stop mode that does not let the steppers run freely, but hold their position. In terms of safety, an estop that lets the spindle crash down is a nightmare.

Thanks! I don’t think I’m at the point of trying a different z assembly yet, but it’s nice to know that the option exists. I imagine my opinion will evolve after the first time I push the e button during an actual cut.

Or break a $40 vbit just turning on the machine

A question that has plagued mankind for months…

My own thinking is that when it’s off it’s in a pseudo frozen state, when you estop it goes idle. I recall seeing a video where Peter demonstrated the closed loop feature and twisted the shaft, and it seemingly returned to the original location. You can still get it to drop when it’s off, but when you turn it on it energizes then hit the estop it goes idle and drops.

I have turned it off and it drop, i have hit the estop and it drops… i have tightened the grub screw (even replaced it with a longer one because i couldn’t tighten it more without skipping)… while doing that it did lessen the frequency, it increased the speed and intensity… so instead of happening every time or most times, it happend sometimes to rarely

Brown Santa came early…

Got it installed and z won’t move. If i remove the motor and use a screwdriver i can turn it, but its difficult. I have no doubt this resistance is tripping the z motor alarm. It wasn’t free spinning, but as memory serves it wasn’t as bad either.

Was there any settings you had to manipulate before and after the brake install?

I’m also considering i wasnt as OCD as i thought i was when installing my flyback diode and have considered switching the wires at the relay, since the brake is bipolar it SHOULDN’T hurt anything. Right?

I would start by checking that the brake works via the relay.
Check that the diode is installed correctly across the +/- wires.
I believe the brake is released/off when it receives VDC+ to the coil, so the relay should be set so that when the Estop is in its normal/safe state, the relay powers the brake.

Also, could you confirm your wiring - perhaps with another/updated sketch like the one you provided earlier?

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That’s been done… well before adding the relay and the diode

I called someone who is also knowledgeable with all things masso and an electrical engineer for almost as long as I’ve been alive, got it working when burning the midnight oil.
The relay wasn’t outputting power, or enough power, so we added some power to the output ports.

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This is an option for 3D printers, it ties the motor phases together and acts as a break on power off. Perhaps a larger version (or even this one) would be a good solution: Z Motor Brake - PrintyPlease.uk

The shaft still turns when the motor is unplugged. I don’t know how good of a solution it is if it’s just a pcb board