Air cooled spindle?

Hey Jim, hey @Wallles,

I’d like to know that too. I searched the web for ceiling lift and ceiling winch but I finally found it with ceiling storage. It’s here:

RACOR PHL-1R CEILING STORAGE LIFT

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Sorry…back to the 65mm spindle. What would you recommend? I will be doing a bunch of stuff but in general want a quieter spindle I can use for long periods of time. There seems to be so many options and opinions.

TIA

I went with a Chinese Huanyang spindle and inverter. I don’t know if they make their spindles but they do make their VFDs and are a large company so I felt a little better choosing them than one of the distributors selling an unknown brand with their name on it. Even the “Japan” or German" bearing Chinese versions some are selling didn’t impress me. With so many counterfeit bearings out there I don’t think you would be able to tell even of you took it apart. Huanyang has an Amazon site which where I ordered my 2.2kW water cooled spindle. I didn’t look for 1.5kW air cooled ones but I assume they sell them. I can’t answer about a spindle made in the EU.

Edward, ETAL-

Is your spindle a 110 version or 220? I just received a g-penny 110VAC air cooled 1.5Kw with the Haunyang controller. I’m having a little difficulty with the controller settings. PD141 and PD142 are the motor voltage and current ratings, respectively. I can set PD141 to 110, but PD142 will not go any higher than 11.0 for the current rating of the motor. The motor plate shows a 12A rating for the motor. Also, it appears by DVM that pin 4 of the spindle connector is in fact grounded to the spindle housing. With that, I assume I can carry a shielded four conductor from the spindle and just bring pin 4 into the earth ground at the Haunyang?

Any advice/ input appreciated!

Hey Joe,

Possibly the VFD does not deliver more. What is its rated output power i.e. what is the model you have?

This is correct and mandatory.


– Source: Omron MX2 User’s Manual

Also don’t forget to set PD143 “Number of Poles”. It may be factory set to “4” which may be wrong if you purchased a 24,000 RPM spindle.

Thanks for the response. The VFD is a Huanyang HY02D211B with a 20A output. My spindle is a G-Penny GST1.5-65-24k 110VAC. So 24k rpm max. I believe its 2 pole, but cant seem to locate that info. Would you think shielded 18 AWG is sufficient for the run between the VFD and motor? Lastly, does the shield need to be connected to the ground at each end as well or is it just a passive EMI filter? Thanks!

Hey Joe,

So it is this one?

首页HY变频器110 V110V 2.2KW HY02D211B

At the moment, I do not know any reason why the value of PD142 should be restricted to 11 Amperes. If the VFD is rated 2.2 kW at 110 V Output that means 20 A.

Or is it a spindle/VFD bundle where the seller has set it this way and locked the settings using PD000=1?

But if set to 11 Amperes, it is okay for your 1,5 kW 110 V spindle, you can use it, don’t you?

PD142 Rated Motor Current Unit: 0.1A Factory Setting: *
It is set according to the rated value of the nameplate of the motor. This parameter can be used to restrict the output current of the inverter to prevent over-current and protect the motor. If the current of the motor has exceeded this value the inverter of AC motor will turn to self-protection.
– Source: Huanyang VFD Manual (PDF) on the “Connecting a Huanyang VFD” page at buildbotics.com

Yes, I know, these no-name chinese spindles (you don’t believe G-Penny is a spindle manufacturer? :slight_smile:) come without datasheet (although you would also need the voltage / frequency curve (e.g. like shown here) in order not to fall below the minimum speed, which can lead to bearing damage).

The spindle RPM is calculated this way:

SPINDLE_RPM = $VFD_FREQ × 2 × 60 / $SPINDLE_NUMBER_OF_POLES

As most VFDs are able to provide max. 400 Hertz and spindle manufacturers refer to this when they specify the RPM rating, this is mostly

400 Hz × 2 × 60 / 2 poles = 24,000 RPM.

Me no. Others maybe yes.

Cheap chinese VFD manuals say nothing about wire sizes. In the manual for my VFD, the Omron MX2 (User’s Manual) / Hitachi WJ200 (Instruction Manual), it is recommended under “Determining Wire and Fuse Sizes” on page 45 rsp. 12:

Determining Wire and Fuse Sizes
The maximum motor currents in your application determines the recommended wore size. The following table gives the wire size. The “Power Lines” column applies to the inverter input power, output wires to the motor, the earth ground connection, and any other components shown in the “Basic System Description” on page 28.
[…]

Power Lines

220 Volts(!) single phase input, CT mode:

Power (kW)Power (HP)

Cross-section Area

American Wire Gauge

0.1 kW1/8 HP 1.3 mm² AWG 16
0.2 kW1/4 HP 1.3 mm² AWG 16
0.4 kW1/2 HP 1.3 mm² AWG 16
0.75 kW1 HP 1.3 mm² AWG 16
1.5 kW2 HP 3.3 mm² AWG 12
2.2 kW3 HP 5.3 mm² AWG 10
[...]

Note that in the table above there are no entries for 110 Volts since Omron/Hitachi manufactures no VFDs for 110 V. But if your VFD’s input power and your spindle are rated 110 Volts, then there flows the double current in Ampères as would with 220 Volts and you have to increase wire sizes accordingly!

Note:
With a 1.5 kW spindle at 240 V there flows 6.25 A current
With a 1.5 kW spindle at 120 V there flows 12.5 A current

The wire sizes mentioned in the table above seem high. Of course you can use thinner wires, but there are reasons for such recommendations.

The wire size for a known current is not defined absolutely. It is defined by a formula which includes power loss and efficiency loss over the wire length. The cross-section area of a wire is inversely proportional to its resistance which strongly affects power and efficiency loss. However these are dimensions that the operator can choose according to their requirements or guidelines.

Note that for dimensioning the wire size, only the current is relevant, neither the power nor the voltage.

If you ask me whether I really put 5.3 mm² (AWG 10) in my drag chain, I say, presently no. If you ask me which wire size I use, at the moment I own a 2.2 kW 230 V spindle which means 9.5 A current, and for 9-12 A I would take nothing under 2.5 mm² (corresponding to 13 AWG). However a webshop I know, for this spindle sells cable with 1.5 mm² (corresponding to 15 AWG).

Note that there is a nice comparison chart for American Wire Gauge to IEC 60228 wire cross-section area in this file:

The fourth wire is used as Protective Earth (PE) which is extremely important for safety and MUST be connected between Spindle casing and VFD casing or VFD PE connector which itself must be connected to ground. It has to be at least the same wire size than the other three 3-phase wires. As for the shield of the cable, it is connected to this PE wire at both sides.

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Don’t confuse single phase input power and the 3 phase output power. That chart you posted Aiph5u looks like it’s for a single phase motor. 18 gauge might be a little small IMO. I’m using 16 gauge shielded wire for my 2.2kW 240v spindle and even after hours of continuous use the wire is cool to the touch. In the case of a 120v 1.5kW spindle you’ll be sending about 1/3 more current than me. 16 gauge 4 conductor shielded wire is not very large in diameter so I would go smaller. 14 might be better in your situation.

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Hey Alex,

No, that is not the case, you can verify, see “1-3 Introduction to Variable-Frequency Drives” in the manual. The VFD Series for which this manual is written only drives 3-phase motors on its output.

As for the input, the models covered include

  • 200 V class single phase input,
  • 200 V class three-phase input and
  • 400 V class three-phase input.

See “1-2-1 Model-specific tables for 200 V and 400 V class inverters”.

Dimensioning as I explained above has the goal the keep power loss and efficiency loss at a minimum. Even if you decide to fall short of these goals that doesn’t mean that your cable gets hot right away. If the spindle cable would get hot it is VERY VERY MUCH under-dimensioned.

With 14 AWG I won’t object.

Had a typo. “would” should have been “wouldn’t”. Length of the wire also matters. The usual (at least in the US) rule of thumb for wiring in a house is 14 gauge for 15 amps and 12 for 20 amps assumes a worse case and long runs of wire.

An engineer isn’t constrained by “rules of thumb”. For example my ‘6.5 hp peak’ shop vac (120v 12 amps) has a 16 gauge 20 foot long cord which is about 1500w. After about a half hour of hard use the cord will feel slightly warm to the touch. Further use doesn’t make it get any hotter. 30c is the usual cut off point where above it you need to start to calculate the loss in the electrical line due to heat. 30c is about the point where I would call it warm to the touch.

Depending on the thickness of the insulation, of course, will make a difference on warm the outside of the cable gets. I suspect that most people are using 4 conductor shielded cable with a thin PVC jacket. If it doesn’t feel hotter than the ambient temperature you are not at risk of loosing power reaching the spindle.

Thanks again for the responses. That is the same model VFD, but I don’t shop at Jeff’s place. The setting for rated motor current is not locked. It can be adjusted down, but it cannot be set above 11A. I have contacted the seller for input. I cannot find a freq. vs voltage curve, but there obviously is a lot of parameter setting for the VFD that is beyond my skill set and I will have to keep reading. I bought this because it is quiet and was cheap. The quality is yet to be determined. I also needed to run at some lower R’s that the makita just cannot do. In my world, 18AWG should easily carry 11A but I will go 16 anyway.

Correction, 16/14 awg.

Hey Alex,

for electrical installations in residential buildings, VDE regulations and DIN standards stipulate similar cable thicknesses here (1,5 mm², 2,5 mm² and 4 mm² commonly used there).

But with spindle or router cables, what we are talking about here are not fixed installations, but cables in permanent motion. Like cables in movable devices, they are dimensioned stronger.

Also, one should be aware that the VFD Manual from which I have given the cable sizes is from VFDs that are made for the industry. That is then also a different standard. I am perhaps in the minority here to apply such standards. By the way Michael @MikeH also has such a VFD, even if he describes himself as a hobbyist.

(Erm, one moment, your ‘4.85 kW peak’ shop vac (1440 VA) has a 1.31 mm² 6.1 m cord, ah, okay!) I’ve had similar experiences and I always didn’t like it. I don’t like cables that get warm. But from a commercial point of view, a cable is primarily copper, which has become a very expensive raw material. The manufacturers are happy to save, and one should be aware that the standardization associations such as VDE and DIN are not charitable organizations but that economic efficiency is also one of their goals. By the way if I buy power strips, then only with 2,5 mm² (approx. 13 AWG) cable.

In metals, the conductivity decreases with increasing temperature due to increasing lattice vibrations, which hinder the flow of electrons. Metals have a positive temperature coefficient of electrical resistance. Shielding would not prevent this. Only choosing a wire with a larger cross-section area will reduce resistance and prevent overheating.

Oh, it’s night in central Europe!

Hey Joe,

That’s very sensible. In fact neither do I. I just thought this forum was so full of Jeff’s-place links that it was best if I take that as a link. But it’s true, actually why should I take such a link. I changed the link above and took the link to the manufacturer, which is actually more reasonable anyway.

PS: “Jeff’s place, lol”

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Hi Ed,

Can you share which VFD model # you are using with your G-Penny? Is the VFD Output 110 or 220?
How are you dealing with the z-stepper clearance issue?

Thanks!

Hi Edward,
I purchased this spindle kit after reading what you said thanks it looks good, I have a question for you considering the wiring, some use extension cords not worrying about the 4th ground wire, and I have seen some using expensive sheilded wire grounding spindle body or from of machine to earth , which route did you go, I m hoping to go cheap extension??? or if anyone went extension have you had any problems??? thanks ahead of time

Hey Greg,

Further information for DIY

See also

Hei Aiph5u
first: thank you for all the great infos you provide to all of us. You helped me a lot!

I finally decided to make the upgrade to the Elite Journeyman with the Upgrade Package. But as it requires the Z-20 I can’t my head around not as well switching to a spindle with 80mm diameter to eliminate the last bit of noise and compromise ;). I do not want to mess with the water cooling stuff and just choose an air-cooled version. That’s quiet enough for me. You just suggested an 0.8kw Version of what I am looking at from Mechatron. But i’m thinking about taking the strongest ER 20 Version of it. It’s quite costly and don’t know if for wood applications that might be an overkill. And is the spindle (temperature, performance, noise) benefiting from beeing rather too powerful or does it just do the opposite and make the spindle hotter than needed if it’s not working in full load? So many questions with such little experience :wink: Thank you!

I am wondering is that still with the 65mm spindle or did you upgrade that also?

Hi Walles,
I was directed to this post by a fellow forum user. It’s not spindle related but, your hoist. Did you have the loads calculated on the joists above to see if they could handle the weight of the CNC being hoisted up? really need to do this because my shop is a double car garage with a bedroom above it which is where it will be hoisted up. i think it will be ok, but I’m just leery on the weight of it deflecting the floor joists. My frame is constructed out of 2x1 square tubing with 2 sheets of 3/4 plywood and 1 sheet of 3/4 MDF as the spoilboard. The table is 72x48 and I have a journeyman so I overly estimated the weight at 500lbs. It is in reality I think, closer to 350 lbs. Any help would be appreciated.
Frank