Is there an upgrade or trade in path for current machines to the ELITE Series? (Official Thread/Outdated)

Hey Tom,

what exactly are the reasons for you to want the Masso Controller? Or, is there something why you think the Onefinity Original Series/Buildbotics Controller is not matching your requirements?

I plan to use another controller too, but that is only for certain reasons. Nonetheless I bought a Onefinity Controller because I think the Buildbotics and its derivate, the Onefinity, is really a very complete and capable controller, it’s a piece of soft- and hardware to be fascinated of if you think of the fact that it was programmed mainly by one person. And for a stand-alone CNC controller, the price is unbeatable.

The open-loop steppers as found on the Onefinity Original Series are used widely everywhere, both in the hobbyist area and in the professional and industrial area too, they are the standard motor for CNC machines. The open-loop stepper motor is an ingenious piece of technology that has the steps there in hardware, and controlling it is something that has been established and improved over many decades. Well-evolved integrated stepper driver chips like the Texas Instruments DRV8711 are available at very low cost. The secret of having open-loop steppers work reliably is simply to dimensionate them correctly for the application.

Closed-loop steppers as found on the Elite/Masso have an encoder (usually a glass disk with marks on it that are read by a photo sensor) that reports back every movement to the driver, so if the motor does not execute the steps which the driver received from the CNC controller, the driver can try to repeat them and catch up the position, and should this fail, will report an alarm to the CNC controller which can then stop the program.

If you should say e.g. as a luthier you have sometimes workpieces worth $3000 then I know exactly what you are talking of. But when judging on the correct motors to choose for your CNC machine, it is important to consider two things:

  1. Do the open-loop steppers really are a cause of possible malfunction to have a danger of damage on a workpiece? Or did I encounter damage because the machine did something wrong but that had in fact other causes? Aren’t open-loop steppers, a well-used standard motor for CNC, reliable enough to not be the cause of problems?

  2. A closed-loop stepper does not report missed steps to the CNC controller either. It just sends an alarm if the amount of divergence between received step commands and steps executed becomes too high and it cannot catch up and compensate this anymore, so the controller can stop the program. But what could be the cause of a stepper not executing the steps? In daily use, this could be e.g.

    • a too high feed, plunge or depth of cut rate so that the motor is not capable to cope with it

    • a failure of the milling motor or of the electric parts that ensure its functioning so that the bit does not rotate anymore

Other errors you could encounter, that would not make loosing steps, but disturb the operation are:

  • a bit that breaks

The question is now: Would a closed-loop stepper have avoided a damage to the workpiece, more than when using an open-loop stepper system? I think it’s about a closed-loop stepper bringing a different machine behaviour: It would not proceed milling the program after having lost too much steps. But would the event that triggered the error, e.g. a too high feed rate, with a bit stuck in the workpiece, or a workpiece shifted out of its position by the too high feed force when bit is partially broken or stalled, have prevented that the machine made a damage to the workpiece? I think, you can’t be sure. If you mill the f-hole of a violin top that was dried for twenty years, I think perhaps you cannot tolerate even a single millimeter damage, that could occur even when using a closed-loop stepper. So in short, the moment when a closed-loop stepper signals the alarm to the CNC controller, often it is when a damage is already done. The controller then just won’t proceed stupidly with the entire rest of the program.

If I personally plan to use something superior to open-loop steppers, that would not be the closed-loop steppers as found on the Masso/Elite, but servo motors, because they have not the typical stepper speed limit and can run twenty times faster. They are closed-loop too, but as they have no hardware steps, they need extremely sophisticated algorithms in their driver and those drivers are more expensive.

But even servos would not change anything on the danger of the user selecting too high cut rates, or routers failing, or bits breaking.

What I think you need in the first place is to retrofit a professional cable management (drag chains) to your machine, to get rid of the known possible causes of errors on this machine, and, if you want, additionally proximity sensors as limit switches which can be added to the Onefinity/Buildbotics controller, to get rid of stall homing.

Besides that, to use the Onefinity/Buildbotics Controller with open-loop steppers, it would be enough to

  1. have enough experience with CNC milling wood to always select an appropriate feed, plunge and depth of cut rate matching the wood type,

  2. to use high-quality bits and to make sure they’re always sharp, and

  3. to have a reliable electric system around a reliable millling motor.

So far my thoughts on that, hope it gave you some inspiration.

Further Information

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Hi @Aiph5u,

Many thanks for your detailed response especially about the difference the closed stepper motors or servos would make, I really appreciate. You are about to convince me that I do not need to upgrade to the Masso.

The main reason I do want to upgrade is to run four 4sided carves.

Vcarve is not able to handle complex 4 axis stl files, in particular where the bit has to cut deeper than the center, there are bugs in the software. The solution would be to to cut the front view, rotate 90 degrees, cut the side and so on. For that I would need X,Y,Z and A running at the same time.

I am not sure the buildbotics controller is able to handle that. I would have to look into it in more detail. The X axis would motors would have to be coupled so that one connector is free for the A, but as far as I know no one on this forum has done that.

I will look into proximity sensors, and I should probably get drag chains, thanks!

Hey Tom,

I understand what you want to have. I also know about this limitation of VCarve.

By the way, what you want is in fact what vertical machining centers (VMCs) do with their rotated workpiece axis A.

I think at the moment, you simply turn the workpiece by 90° more or less manually after each working step, and it works but you would like that the machine does it by itself in one run.

I plan to implement the same as what you want, but I’m not yet there, so unfortunately I cannot show you or share something that works. I plan to use a PC-motherboard with I/O port card-based CNC controller and use LinuxCNC as the CNC control software, but LinuxCNC is not a controller hardware, just a CNC controller software.

I understand that the Masso G3 with its five drivers would handle what you want easily with still each Y motor on its own driver. You could buy just the Masso G3 yourself and use it with the Onefinity Original Series stock steppers (23HS30-2804S & 23HS22-2804S), in that case you would have to buy the suitable stepper drivers as separate units. That is possible, the Masso can work with many different stepper motors. You would also need a power supply and a relay module. Tom @TMToronto has shown in this forum how to setup and use the Masso G3 in a custom configuration and has more experience with this controller.

I don’t know if I will have the time to take a closer look at the Onefinity’s/Buildbotics’ capability to run the two Y steppers on one driver reliably to have the fourth driver free for an A axis, but I think it would be well worth it. The problem is I really have so much different things to do at the moment and I have not much progress with my CNC at the moment at all.

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I know the Masso is relatively new here but compare the number of post’s with unusual problems for the BB control verses the Masso, in MHO it is a game changer for ease of us and rock solid control

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@OnefinityCNC I am wondering is there an option or possibility to upgrade from Elite Journeyman to Elite Foreman I would imagine it would be pretty easy to swap the rails for longer ones but wanted to ask.

Thanks!

@Unbrealbhal Josh, Please refer to the the first post from OneFinity on this exact topic. That gives you complete details pertaining to the upgrade path at this time.

The last sentence, states they will let us know once that is a viable option and available to do!

-Alex

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Hi Alex,

The original post is aimed at individuals wanting to upgrade a current machine to elite series. I have an elite and was curious if they would offer the longer Y rails at some point for an existing elite.

Guess patience is in order in any event.

-Josh

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Hi Josh,
There will not be an upgrade path to the foreman size. Unfortunately, it’s looking like it’s not feasible financially due to replacing both rails.

If you’d like to upgrade to a Forman, your best bet would be to sell your current machine privately early and purchase a foreman.

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Just got the email :stuck_out_tongue:

Such good news! Can’t wait.

We sent out an update today (8/23/2023) on the status of upgrading from x-35/x-50 to elite.

Hello Onefinity Customers!

We hope this message finds you well! We would first like to take this opportunity to thank you all for your amazing support. We truly appreciate it!

We are excited to announce that the Elite upgrade kit will be available for purchase sometime in October with the first kits delivering before Christmas. We have spent countless hours working through the logistics, putting the final touches on the B.O.M (Bill of Materials), finalizing the videos and manuals and receiving feedback from beta testers. We apologize for the delay in releasing this kit, however, when we launched the Elite series, demand was overwhelming and continues to be strong. Because of this, we needed to ensure MASSO was able to meet the demand and provide consistent deliveries before announcing the upgrade kit.

We will announce the date the kits will go on sale, along with pricing a few weeks before taking orders. So please keep an eye on your inbox, social media, and our Onefinity Forum (https://forum.onefinitycnc.com/).

We, at Onefinity CNC, value all our customers; past, present, and future which is why we have taken a great deal of time designing our products so that existing customers can take advantage of the latest product improvements and innovations. When upgrading, some parts will no longer be required. To ensure perfectly good parts don’t collect dust or end up in the trash, we bring the unused parts back, refurbish them and use them to create machines that we donate to veterans, via our Infinite Possibilities Program! We will have exciting changes coming to our I.P. Program in October, so stay tuned for this!

In addition to the upgrade kit announcement, as of June 2023, all Onefinity CNC machines come with a ¼” down cut bit courtesy of Bits & Bits (bitsbits.com). They are also offering their bits at 20% off to all Onefinity customers! If you are a Onefinity owner, please use code 1F20 to receive your discount.

As always, if you have any questions or need assistance, you are welcome to reach out to us either by email at info@onefinitycnc.com or give us a call at: 1-888-717-4242

Sincerely,

The Entire Onefinity Family

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What are the main reasons you feel you need to upgrade? I only ask because your needs might not be completely fulfilled with the elite upgrade! I do industrial CNC control upgrades for a living and purchased a onefinity to do some light duty non critical work but have found the control quite limited for both the hobbyist and the professional. This may be due to my experience with more sophisticated controls. I don’t personally have experience with the masso controller but if you are having problems with the original control some of those problems may not be fixed with the masso (elite) control or even with the hybrid steppers as closed loop steppers are not a fix all. For instance if your problem is that you have to re home the machine ever time you hit the estop then close loop steppers (hybrid steppers) will not fix this as the control cannot see where the motors really are and needs fully closed loop to fix this but if your issue is missed steps then hybrid steppers motors will help but can still loose steps when pushed to hard however they will at least throw a fault but could still damage the work piece. I am currently designing some control upgrade packages for the onefinity. The control software will be the same industrial control software I use on all the machines I rebuild. I will have options from open loop to fully closed loop. If there is anything I can do to help be it advice or an upgrade option that will correct any issues or frustrations you have with the current control. I hopped on here to get a feel for some people’s needs as not everyone will have the same needs as I have and I would like to give the best possible options. The onefinity machine itself is a very capable machine though it has its limitations for the price the machine is very good and onefinity has done a great job at designing the machine itself it just lacks a control that can make the lives easier for the serious hobbyist/professional but this isn’t just onefinity that has these problems they all do unless your dropping big money in an industrial machine. Feel free to reach out to me at shane.tmc@outlook.com with any questions as it will take some time to get an online store together.

Will there be different upgrade options for those that may have already purchased some of the components through the Infinite Possibilities program that come standard on the Elite Series? For example the Z-20 slider… Some have already exchanged their Z-16 with the Z-20 through the IPP, if this is part of the Elite series upgrade package then one may end up with 2 of these unnecessarily. Will there be an option to include/exclude something like this if already purchased separately?

Thanks

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Have the same question there, for those of us who have upgraded the z-20 already… hoping as the shipping weight and components to compensate for the Z-20 are not needed there will be an option to upgrade that excludes the Z-20. Excited nonetheless!

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@OnefinityCNC

Hello team. Your last email concerning the Elite upgrade for existing OF owners said they would go on Sale in Oct and that you would announce a few weeks before the details of the process. It is now Sep 29, so I’m assuming you’ve been delayed. Can you update us on the timeline and process?

Thanks,

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Nothing to update yet.

Thank you for supporting your customers. I look forward to being able to place my order for the upgrade

Hi and thank you for this update regarding the future upgrade to the Masso

Can you please confirm this will be available to all customers including those living on the other side of the pond in the United Kingdom?

Being a loyal customer and one of the first to buy the original model I was disappointed not to be considered for the last upgrade program you ran (x50 rail )

Although at the time I did understand the reasons given due to customs tax purposes I do hope you have given this some thought and a possible solution for customers living outside of the USA

I look forward to your reply as I am excited at the thought of this possible upgrade

Kind Regards Paultommy

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Whelp guys, there’s only 6 days left for this month. Any updates on a new timeline for this upgrade?

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Email sent on 10/25/23

Elite Upgrade Kit

Hello Onefinity Customers!

We hope this message finds you well! We would first like to take this opportunity to thank you all for your amazing support. We truly appreciate it!

Onefinity is excited to announce that the Elite Upgrade Kit will be available for purchase on November 2, 2023 at 10am (EST). First orders will start shipping within

3-4 weeks after ordering. Please pay attention to the Lead times on our shipping Info page when ordering as the delivery date may change based on demand.

In addition, we are very proud to announce that the Elite Upgrade kit will be part of our IPP program. The IPP program not only helps you save money, it also helps get Onefinity CNC machines in the hands veterans, Makerspaces, other individuals and non-profit organizations. Please ensure you enroll ahead of time to prevent delays. To learn more about our IPP program and to enroll please visit our Infinite Possibilities Program page: https://www.onefinitycnc.com/upgradesinfo

Important Note: For the upgrade kit to work the Z-20 (Heavy Duty Z-Slider) is required. To ensure you don’t purchase unnecessary parts, there will be a few different kits available and the one you chose will be determined by your existing machine. Please ensure you read and understand the product page before ordering to ensure you receive the correct kit. If you are unsure what kit to purchase, please email support@onefinitycnc.com so we can help you get the right kit for your needs!

As always, if you have any questions or need assistance, you are welcome to reach out to us either by email at info@onefinitycnc.com or give us a call at: 1-888-717-4242

Sincerely,

The Entire Onefinity Family


Before you send an email to info or support about more details of the update kit:

1. WE DON’T HAVE FINAL PRICING TO SHARE YET.
2. WE DON’T HAVE A LIST OF WHAT’S IN THE KIT YET.
3. WHEN WE DO HAVE THE ABOVE INFO, WE WILL SEND OUT ANOTHER EMAIL BLAST.
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