A question on spindles

[NLAlston]

Hey there, you good folks.

With the upgrades that I am aiming to do, with my X-50 Woodworker, it is now seemingly realistic that I will NOT be in the position to, also, add in the Redline CNC 3hp 220v spindle kit. So, my question is this:

Does anyone know of a good Chinese spindle kit (plug & play - if there IS one), that I can marry to my 1F partner? I am ‘electronically anorexic’() when it comes to electrical workings (such as that which would be required, regarding the wiring of a spindle to a VFD).

As always, any help in this matter would be very much appreciated.

Blessings,
Nathan

[Echd]

Get the redline plug and play kit

[NLAlston]

Thank you, for the time and effort you put forth in laying that information out, to me. It really means much. And I think that you have, kinda, sealed the deal - in the action that I’m going to take. I’ve a 220v outlet in my little shop, which was put in to power my, previously owned, 3hp Delta Unisaw, and I WILL be saving up for the PwnCnc 2.2kw 220v spindle. I will, however, forgo water-cooled, and opt for air-cooled. It’s a shame that I will run past the 1yr Onefinity warranty, on my X-50 Woodworker, before having the opportunity to use it even once. But that’s ok. At least I’ll be as right as I CAN be, WHEN that time comes . Again, I thank you.

Blessings,
Nathan

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Hey Nathan,

@Echd already provided you with a very good response.

There are industry-grade german ready-to-use VFD/spindle/control cabinet solutions (e.g. described in the video below) but they require a certain budget:

@Aiph5u

Or, you can buy a control cabinet assembled and configured ready-to-use:

• Electrical Cabinets - Mechatron

Unboxing video:

CNC Finale: Automatic Toolchanger Spindle Install & Testing

Image: Shown is a full-blown control cabinet with VFD, circuit breaker, safety relay (red), and EMI filter on the left, and the pneumatics system for the automatic tool changer system of the ATC-8022-42-HSK25 2.2 kW 42,000 rpm water-cooled spindle on the right (and additional air tube (blue) with valve retrofit by video author which also wanted workpiece mist coolant – described in the video). On the back of the door you see the back of power switch, emergency button and reset button. Note the thick earth line that connects door to the rest of the cabinet.

So if you want to wire and assemble a VFD/spindle/control cabinet yourself, I add a collection of links below with some information that may help you.

What I think you should know in the first place are a few things:

1. If you buy a Huanyang HY series VFD (which is part of the cheap Huanyang spindle/VFD kits), this VFD has no sensorless vector control (SVC).(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1-7zW33DPk80t8vYBqwfPjI9U4SrDRyA8) has this capability. If you ask me which VFD I recommend, please see Name brand vs Huanyang – Post #4 by Aiph5u.

2. Even if you want to wire your spindle/VFD/control cabinet yourself, I would recommend to buy a ready-to-use spindle cable and not make it yourself. For the reason and details, please see Where to get spindle cable – Post #1 by Aiph5u.

3. The power in kilowatts (kW) that you find on chinese spindle nameplates is often wrong. It may happen that think you buy a 2.2 kW spindle because they sell it with this statement, but in reality it’s only a 1.5 kW spindle. See here for details in order to be able to judge on kW statements on spindle nameplates.

Here is useful information if you want to wire your spindle/VFD/control cabinet yourself (I tried to sort them in a useful order):

[Echd]

Honestly, my man, you mentioned you didnt really need another trim router, but I’d go ahead and pick up a makita and start using your 1f. You aren’t that limited by it, and if you aren’t experienced or reckless enough to push feeds and speeds hard you won’t be held back. A The spindle is pretty easy to use, don’t get me wrong- but the makita is essentially fire and forget. Leave the rotating dial at 1 or 2 and rock on. I see the makitas all over ebay for $80-100.

I like having multiple trim routers anyway, i put two bits in if I’m doing a more “complex” molding or trim piece and just use them together.

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Hey Nathan, hey Echd,

@NLAlston

I don’t really want to go the way of the Makita trim router. In knowing that I wouldn’t stay with it long, it (in MY mind) would translate into a waste of funds (I already have a good trim router in my tool arsenal, in the event that I needed one for a job).

@Echd

you mentioned you didnt really need another trim router, but I’d go ahead and pick up a makita and start using your 1f. You aren’t that limited by it, and if you aren’t experienced or reckless enough to push feeds and speeds hard you won’t be held back. […] I see the makitas all over ebay for $80-100.

When I imagine your situation, Nathan, i.e. you have another CNC and the Onefinity is already there ready to be assembled, at same time a spindle is too expensive and a dedicated milling motor probably too and also the latter cannot (yet) be mounted on the Onefinity, I ask myself if @Echd’s advice is not so bad.

I’m usually the first person who warns that the Makita hand trim router is not the right thing for a CNC machine, and that it’s easy to overload it in a CNC, and unfortunately it doesn’t trip in that case (like a VFD would) but gets too hot and can burn, but regarding what Echd says, if you have experience with a hand trim router (in hand-held, short-duration use), then you pretty much know under what conditions it will work without overload (and not burn out), so if you make sure it stays within those conditions you can use it to test the CNC machine for the time being (until you have money for a spindle). Possibly better than having the machine around doing nothing. You could get familiar with the machine this way.

Of course it depends on what projects you intend to mill with it. But it seems obvious to me that many Onefinity CNC owners only do things that don’t burn out the Makita hand trim router. In any case, with a hand trim router mounted in the CNC, I would always stand besides the machine when it runs (of course with a big (e.g. paddle-style) emergency stop disconnecting the entire installation (=not the red button on Onefinity Controller case) and a fire extinguisher ready) and avoid using bits larger than 1/4". When a Makita burned out, it was often when users used 1¼" surfacing bits.

As explained here, the Makita has no torque at high speeds (and wood is milled at high speeds) and with this type of motor, the speed decreases with the load, and when slowed down the current increases, and with it, the heat, while the fan then turns too slowly. So you know what to avoid: Too high load. Also I would not use bits larger than 1/2" with the Makita (especially avoid large diameter surfacing bits as it was always during their use that the router burned up). Makita does not offer bits larger that 1/2" for the RT070x.

What is bit sad and often leads to problems is that the proprietary Makita collet does not hold the bit as safely as on an ER collet.

Further reading

The Makita router ate the big log – Post #1 by Bear
Makita Router Overload – Post #1 by RexH
Fire Safety in workshop – Post #9 by Aiph5u
Largest clearance bit the Makita router can use – Post #2 by Aiph5u
Makita Bearing went Bad – #4 by ConvenientWoodwork
Makita burned up – Post #1 by WikiSnapper

[NLAlston]

You know, the main issue I’d had, with pairing the trim router with my 1F, had to do with having read (in a couple of different places) that such motors were not suitable for CNC tasks and, therefore, not recommended. And now, I learn that it wouldn’t be wise to use bits with shanks larger than 1/8", with them.

But, within the next thirty days I am going to have SOMETHING riding the rails of my 1F .
If it isn’t the spindle, it will be the Makita. I just need to insure that all is proper, with my CNC, before the warranty expires.

Blessings,
Nathan

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Hey Nathan,

@NLAlston

You know, the main issue I’d had, with pairing the trim router with my 1F, had to do with having read (in a couple of different places) that such motors were not suitable for CNC tasks and, therefore, not recommended.

It is still not recommended (in my opinion). In the Makita manual, it says it is only for hand-held usage, and Makita support confirmed that when you mount the Makita hand trim router into a CNC, the router’s warranty is lost in that moment. But I think you’re in a situation where you have to think practically, and I think that’s why Echd’s advice (who also, like me, bought a spindle) to consider buying and using the Makita trim router for a while, which I agreed with regarding your situation: you have to see where you stay. You can always spend money later.

@NLAlston

And now, I learn that it wouldn’t be wise to use bits with shanks larger than 1/8", with them.

Sorry, I meant 1/4". I am not used to think in inches, I mean 6 mm. The Makita is sold outside the U.S. with 6 and 8 mm collets.

What I rather meant, not using larger bits than 1/4" will be the best way to avoid any overload.

@NLAlston

But, within the next thirty days I am going to have SOMETHING riding the rails of my 1F .
If it isn’t the spindle, it will be the Makita. I just need to insure that all is proper, with my CNC, before the warranty expires.

Exactly

[Echd]

@newsvan is also totally correct. The makita is deemed totally appropriate and vouched for by onefinity. Yes, a spindle is objectively “better”. In reality you gain some work time as there is nothing a spindle can do in this context a makita cannot also do, just maybe slower or with a few more passes.

A spindle is not a “must have”, but many cnc owners- especially the sort doing it as a hobby- are inveterate tinkerers. Look at all the fancy work tables on this site! A lot of it is totally for fun. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But don’t lose sight of the reality that the machine was designed with the makita in mind and it is up to the task.

If you are looking to pick up some bits to get started with the makita i recommend the spetool bits on amazon. Inexpensive and fairly high quality. I use their 1/8 compression bit with a 3/4 inch cutting surface a lot! They sell good starter sets with endmills and vbits that will get you in the game cheaply.

[NLAlston]

You know what? The BOTH of you make sense. I’ve come to be acclimated to the more frugal arena, in my somewhat elevated years, which is to say that I am quite a bit more careful with spending . Thank you, for clarifying that you meant 1/4" instead of 1/8" bits (that, initially, scared the Dickens out of me ).

I, yet, have so very much too learn, about CNC operations. But my appetite for doing so is MASSIVE. The fact that I - as a newbie here, can put forth a query, concern - or WHATEVER, to this community - and gain not only speedy, but very helpful responses, is (to me) unparalleled. I am, most certainly, in a very great place (here), with some very considerate, caring and super helpful fellow CNC’ers. My hat is off - to each, and every one of you .

Blessings,
Nathan

[Aiph5u (Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))]

Hey Nathan, hey @Echd,

you wrote earlier you own an Axiom Iconic-8. With its welded base and all-axes ball screws this must be a nice machine. What kind of milling motor is inside the case on the gantry? Is this a spindle on a VFD, or a milling motor?

I still believe the best thing for you would be what I consider the best milling motor solution for hobbyists and semiprofessionals, since it requires no VFD, but is explicitly made for CNC machines. You would need to spend approx $500 once and you would not need anything else (no VFD, no custom wiring, just an analog line for the motor’s speed control interface to the CNC controller). What is still missing is a possibility to attach such a milling motor to the Onefinity CNC. A simple reduction ring to 43 mm would not be enough, as explained in this thread, a mount option for the Onefinity CNC would have to look rather like this (it is a requested feature).

If you look at this AMB milling motor video, you can see how it performs in a CNC machine. Unlike the Makita hand trim router, which is not allowed to be used in a CNC by its manufacturer and looses warranty if you do, these motors are explicitly made for use in a CNC machine. They have an all-steel motor flange with double bearing for high performance and longevity. And they have ER collets.

• AMB milling motors
• AMB milling motors with tool changer

A similar milling motor was used to mill the entire Jazz Bass in this video. Looks like a rebranded Mafell milling motor.

@Echd

Yes, a spindle is objectively “better”. In reality you gain some work time as there is nothing a spindle can do in this context a makita cannot also do, just maybe slower or with a few more passes.

In principle, you are right, it is a motor that rotates a milling bit. It’s more the performance and the behaviour in different situations that makes the difference. With a spindle, you can get to a very high performance limit without problems. When you increase the mechanical load (more feedrate, more depth of cut, more stepover, harder wood), the spindle will not be slowed down like the hand router, and when you go beyond the limit, the VFD will simply protect the spindle and the workpiece and stop the spindle and the g-code program. A hand trim router is completely unable to do that. If you give it a higher load, it will be slowed down, get hotter, and then fail, possibly with severe damage, in the range from broken bit, ruined workpiece, to shop burned down. A spindle is not only much more efficient, but also much more smart and will prevent damage to your machine and your workpiece.

This also means with a hand trim router as a CNC milling motor, you have to always stand beside the machine. With a spindle and a VFD wired to a safety relay that monitors everything, you can leave the machine alone. If something goes wrong, the spindle and the machine will be stopped. However this are additional costs to the bare spindle/VFD kit.

Here is a video which shows when you get near the limit of the spindle/VFD:

https://youtu.be/h9q6j7POgOI?t=488

It shows how their 220 V 2.5 kW spindle is driven to draw up to 10 A current from the output of the VFD (spindle current drawn in Ampères shown on the lower right). The test consists of driving a 10 mm 3-flute aluminium end mill through an 6061 aluminium block with 1000 mm/min feedrate, 10 mm depth of cut and 8 mm width of cut (US customary units: The test consists of driving a 13/32" 3-flute end mill through an 6061 aluminium block with 40 IPM, 13/32" DOC, 5/16" WOC).

What they don’t show, is what would happen if you go beyond the limit that is set in a VFD parameter: The VFD would trip and the safety circuit would stop the spindle and the g-code program on the CNC controller.

[jfleser (Jim Fleser)]

I’m in the process of installing a 220V/Water-cooled spindle and I hate the Makita with a passion. (My pair have failed 5 times total and the local Makita warranty shop, 45 minutes away, finally stopped repairing them citing ‘improper use case.’). However, there is so much to learn and you will surely make some drastic mistakes that you’ll be very glad were made with a wimpy trim router that bogs down quickly instead of a 3HP industrial spindle trying to maintain 20,000 rpm.

Seriously, as much as I hate to admit it, 1F and the other folks here are right in saying that it’s a great way to learn.

[NLAlston]

@Aiph5u

Yes, my Axiom Precision 8 is powered by an air cooled spindle, and is really a nice machine.