Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
142
Hey Craig,
yes, the breakout board contains only direct connections to the inside of the Onefinity/Buildbotics controller.
As I cannot offer you another solution (the one I am working on is not ready, but I will publish it when ready), I suggest you do exactly that. With the information from the FAQ and the specs of the IoT relay, it is more probable that it will be okay than not.
But I gave you the warnings, 1. it is better when a CNC controller has optoisolators on its ports, like the Masso, and 2. I would ask the IoT relay manufacturer what they think of wiring two green trigger inputs in parallel when feeding the two IoT relays from different supply circuits.
Replacing an IoT relay will not kill you financially I assume, but If you fry the AVR microcontroller inside the Onefinity controller, replacing the mainboard will become rather expensive. It’s just that if you are careful not to make inadverted connections, and work ESD-safe, with these green IoT relay trigger inputs it’s not that probable to do harm.
Hello, I have the JourneyMan CNC wit Break-out , 2.2KW Spindle kit at 220Volts ( soon to arrive ), is your Spindle or Milita router 220Volts, if either what is your physical wire setup.?
As mentioned in the message, that was for (110V) Makita Router. The configuration would be different for a 220V spindle.
I re-did my setup a year ago to upgrade to the spindle. Off-hand I don’t recall the specifics on the wiring. I connected a kill switch to the breakout board in series with the water cooler status. I have the IOT relay connected as well for the dust collection. I.e. When the controller tells the spindle to start up it also starts the dust collection but only if the kill switch is closed and water cooler is running. My CNC controller is a bit awkward to get to so I wanted a kill switch in a quicker to access location. This is a more standard configuration for the IOT switch than what I had described before.
Thanks for your response, I did some more research and pull some of my electricla understanding of Solid State Relays, the solution wasactualy looking at m in the face:
Just purchase a Step-Up Transformer ( 120V to 220V ) - The IOT 120V Output Connected to the INPUT 120V Outlet , Conect ROUTER to 220V Output Outlet of the Step-Up Transformer.
Also regarding a Water cooler or FAN or any other External CNC equipment, in the VFD Digital outputs ( C, NC, Common), wire these relay conditions ( C,NC ) to your IOT and under your VDF CODES ,set the Uniform Fequency to the Speed you wish FAN, Dust Collector etc to turn on ( 24000Rpms / 60 = 400 Fequency ), Just reduce by the Rpms you wish , aftr devide by 60 = Fequency setting to turn on or off (IOT) you need.
Maybe I read your message wrong, but it seemed like you were going to power a step-up transformer with an IOT switch and use that to power your VFD. Is that right?
A step-up transformer is not going to work well. If you are stepping up from the 12A that the IOT relay can put out, you then doing only 6amp at 220V. Your 2.2KW spindle needs a lot more than that. You could limit it within the VFD to <6 Amps but then you are getting at best 6*220V = 1.3KW. There may also be issues with the quality of the power from a step-up transformer. I would say DO NOT power a spindle and VFD from an IOT switch. Also, you should never just kill power to a VFD without a proper shutdown procedure unless it is a serious emergency only. Spindles powering down uncontrolled will act as a generator.
There’s lots of info on this site about wiring for 220V spindles. Quick summary: do a proper dedicated 220V circuit, make sure it is specced right for the amperage required and add in things like EMI filters, etc. Put your other powered items on other circuits. I.e. the water cooler, dust connection on a 120V circuit. Put your CNC controller on a different 120V circuit (or you will be dealing with noise issues). Also make sure you properly ground your CNC when using a spindle, and make sure your spindle is properly grounded internally (some are not). General advice: If you are unsure of what you are doing, hire an electrician. This stuff can kill you.
The Spindle is rated for 8Amps, the IOT is rated for up to 12 Amps. I have a few Step Up transformers, they are rated for 5KW, this more than enough. I do not intend to use any vacums or water cooling on the circuit.
12 Amps at 120V. That’s 6 Amps at 220V (240). A 12Amp 120V circuit can only generate about 1440 watts. Double the voltage and the amps halve because the wattage has to remain the same (1440W/240V = 6 Amps). And that doesn’t count the loss you will have running through the transformer. Please, learn more about AC electricity, VFDs and spindles before embarking on this or hire a pro. Sorry to be harsh but if you get this wrong, you can burn your house/shop down, and/or harm yourself and others.
Why do you want the VFD on the IOT relay? Talk directly between the CNC controller and the VFD, there’s no reason for the IOT Relay that I can see.
Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
149
Hey Julian,
But here you misunderstand what 8 A means on three-phase electricity. This means the VFD’s output current, and it is 8 A per phase on a three-phase current, which is what a VFD produces. What you need is to know the input current of the VFD. With a VFD for a 220 V spindle that is rated 2.2 kW, this is usually 24 A.
On three-phase electricity, the so-called apparent power (this is the power that really flows and which is the base of dimensionating the wire gauges and the fuse), is calculated this way:
Pappar = 230 · 8 · √3 = 3186.97 VA
So you see, a VFD for your 2.2 kW 230 V spindle draws up to 3.2 kVA of current! To this, you still have to add more current because of the loss because the efficiency of the VFD itself. A VFD is a AC-to-DC-to-three-phase inverter. Of course there is additional loss.
Also according to IEC 60034-1 the power rating on spindles does not mean the electrical power they draw, but the mechanical power they are able to deliver at their shaft (see here for details).
The electrical power is higher because of loss (efficiency and because of the so-called power factor). A spindle’s current draw and power is calculated → this way.
Here you can see the nameplate of my VFD and Michael’s, both are VFDs for 2.2 kW 220 V spindle:
Look at the input current, and at the output current. The output current refers to the current per phase!
Also you have to know that despite the fact that it is recommend to connect a VFD to the supply circuit with a magnetic contactor, you NEVER switch the spindle off by cutting the current to the VFD!NEVER cut the power to a VFD while the spindle is in RUN mode!
The only allowed way to stop a spindle is to use the STOP (or disable RUN or disable REV) command, either by VFD keypad, Modbus command, or programmed input terminal. Otherwise you may damage the VFD and the spindle or both.
There is enough knowledge in this forum. Please use the search function.
Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
150
Hey Atroz, hey Julian, hey all,
You need to use the correct formula if you refer to the VFD output / spindle input current, because it is three-phase electricity. The formula of three-phase current differs from the formula of single-phase AC. See here for details.
Also what matters here is the input current of the VFD, not the VFD output current / spindle input current. Unfortunately, it is often willingly omitted by the VFD manufacturers of cheap chinese VFD manufacturers:
As explained above, for a 2.2 kW mechanical power at the end of the shaft you need more than 3.2 kVA, plus VFD loss. There exist VFDs with a step-up converter, like the Huanyang “B-T” Models or the Invertek Optidrive ODE-3-210058-104# , but they are much more expensive than normal VFDs.
Julian @OneCNC, are you in North America? Usually you have split-phase electricity in the U.S. domestic areas which means 120 V between one hot and one neutral, and 240 V between the two hots, for radiators, oven, heaters, air conditioners etc. And for table saw and spindles. Better let an electrician install a NEMA 14 or NEMA 6 socket with 240 V and run your VFD/spindle directly.
Thanks for your valuable input, thisis my first CNC, and indeed I need to get this right. At present I wish to be be able to install the 220V - 2.2KW Spindle.
Base on what read on the forum, a Control Box Break-Out unit is needed, based on my research the Break-out cable ( Pv + Neg ) needs to connect to a IOT.
Thanks for this break-down, and I do not take your help as hash, I need the correct input so as to not destroy my equipment, I did forgot about the Setup-transformer principle.
The Controller has to control the Spindle, tell me the the correct connection approah, I may have mis-understood the forums I read…
Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
153
Hey Julian,
the questions you ask tell me you did not yet tried to find the information that is already present. Otherwise you would know that the buildbotics-derived Onefinity Controller of PRO and Original Series supports Modbus serial communication. And to think that you use a IoT relay to switch a spindle on and off is a very bad idea. And you would also know a lot of other things.
You cannot expect that after writing was invented, that volunteers that get no money for helping here tell the same things individually again and again everytime someone arrives here that wants to know the always same things as the previous one. Writing was already invented, so since 5000 years, your first choice to aquire knowledge and to get answers to your questions is no more to go the the marketplace (lat.: forum) and ask the elder, but to first read the writing available.
And only then, after you informed yourself, show the elder that you informed yourself. Then you will receive good help, usually.
There are enough answers to exactly what you want to know, here in the forum. We have a search function.
Help us make this a great place for discussion by always working to improve the discussion in some way, however small. If you are not sure your post adds to the conversation, think over what you want to say and try again later.
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I have Split Phase , both 120V and 220V from my utility power at 50Hz.
Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
155
Hey Julian,
this is fine, then you can supply your 220 V VFD directly from a NEMA 14 or NEMA 6 socket. What you need to know for the connection of the VFD and the spindle as the next step is described here in this post:
Here you can see some additional parts you could also use to reduce electromagnetic interference and to make the three-phase current that the VFD delivers less noisy and less harmful (approaching the ideal of nice sine waves). The most important is the matching EMI filter, usually its part number is mentioned in the VFD manual.
I also have a 2.2KW Spindle 220V Kit with a VFD on order ( RATTMMOTOR CNC Air Cooled Spindle Motor Kit, 2.2KW Barbados | Ubuy )
, the Spindle needs 8Amps, what is your advise regards items needed and connection ? , I intend ti upgrade with the new spindle a few weeks after I test the makita router.
I rather the spindle. Looking out for your advise here.
Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
157
Hey Julian,
what Charley calls “spindle” in that post that you reply to, is not a spindle, he means the Makita hand trim router. NEVER connect a VFD this way! His posting is not about spindles!
A spindle is a slim, usually cylindrical three-phase asynchronous induction motor that is driven by a three-phase current with variable frequency, so Charley used the term wrongly.
If you have a router with 220 V (like this one), you need a relay that can switch 220 V. A router can be switched on and off by the ‘tool-enable’ pin 15 and ground of the 25-pin I/O port (e.g. via a breakout box). These two pins have to be connected to the control circuit of the relay.
1 Like
Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
158
Hey Julian,
the one you found it obviously for 12 V. But you need a triggering voltage of 3.3 V to connect it to the Onefinity controller.
If you want to switch a router like this one by the g-code program that runs on the Onefinity controller, and you want to connect it directly to the ‘tool-enable’ pin 15 of the 25-pin I/O port, you need to know that these pins are directly the pins of the internal AVR microcontroller that can provide only 3.3 V and very few milliampères of current. Usually you don’t connect a relay module directly to these pins, but you need a driver and / or an optocoupler. This would require soldering a circuit. But recently there exist low triggering current relay modules, with screw terminals. You’ll have to search for a model with 3.3 V trigger voltage and with low trigger current. Often it helps to add the search keyword “Arduino” to the “relay” and “3.3 V”, because the internal AVR microcontroller inside the Onefinity controller is similar to the AVR in the Arduino.
Most people here use this ready-to-use External IoT relay (FAQ) with screw terminals, but this one is only rated for switching 120 V AC loads, not 220 V loads.
Question : With the 2.2KW Spindle install with VFD, do I use Pin 15 and GND to connect to VFD FA (NC) or FC ( NO ) with FB ( Common )
Aiph5u
(Aiph5u (not affiliated with Onefinity))
160
No. If you run a VFD/spindle, you do not connect the VFD to any other pins as the Modbus pins 13 and 14 on the Onefinity Controller. (except if you buy a CNC controller that does not support Modbus serial communicaton, like the Elite Masso)
The pin 15 “tool-enable” is for switching on and off a router through a relay, not for a VFD/spindle.
The FA FB FC pins on the VFD are for another purpose and can be searched for in this forum’ s search function.
Has anyone figured out a way to have air assist trigger on/off during laser engraving/carving? I get best results when engraving w/out air assist, and cutting with air assist. Right now I have them split into 2 programs so I can manually turn the air assist on for the cut, but it would be nice to have it auto-trigger. I mainly use Lightburn. Thanks!
